staring up in cold weather

[mazda36]

today when I wanna start my car in the cold weather -15, but it took like 10 sec to start.... is there a problem with my engine or something else?? anyone have the same problem?? thanks =)

[MajesticBlueNTO]

usually if you turn the key to the "on" position, wait for the fuel pump to prime, then start the car, it'll start quickly.

if you did that and it still took a long time to start, the cold weather has an adverse effect on the battery and its ability to supply the juice necessary to start the car.

it all depends on how long your car was sitting in the cold, etc and is not out of the ordinary. (ever try starting a car in -40C (non-wind chill) that hasn't been plugged in? it doesn't sound pretty.)

[mazda36]

I will give it a try tomorrow!! thanks =D

[CoolColombian]

I was gonna ask the same question.

My car was parked for like 13 hours since las night till I went to work today and it didn't start the first time, I had to give it another try, then it started and just now getting out of work at -25 the same thing happened again, first try; nothing, second one, started, I don't remember leaving the key in ON for a few seconds so I'm gonna try that tomorrow, but right now i'm very concern about it, this never happened last winter. :S

[1stMazda]

No problems yesterday (-17) only thing I notice is that it revs really high (1300-1500 rpm), it sucks cause its really hard to drive without jerking all over, I have to drive about 1.5k out of work in a lineup going 10-20km/h, its hard and its probably hard on the clutch, oh well its not everyday here in southern ontario.

[Flagrum_3]

No problems yesterday (-17) only thing I notice is that it revs really high (1300-1500 rpm), it sucks cause its really hard to drive without jerking all over, I have to drive about 1.5k out of work in a lineup going 10-20km/h, its hard and its probably hard on the clutch, oh well its not everyday here in southern ontario.


HolyChit mang give the thing time to warm up!! A minute and a half to 2 minutes is all it needs and the revs will drop.Plus your probably doing harm to your engine bogging it like that!! People can say what they want about warm up times, but you need to let the oil warm up to get the oil pressure up properly in these cold temps or you will cause undo wear.


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[bubba1983]

jus wait till the automatic choke or whatever mr.technical calls it to settle down the rpm's to a resonable level....it don't take long...wheres the fire poeple??

[MAZDA Kitten]

I was gonna ask the same question.

My car was parked for like 13 hours since las night till I went to work today and it didn't start the first time, I had to give it another try, then it started and just now getting out of work at -25 the same thing happened again, first try; nothing, second one, started, I don't remember leaving the key in ON for a few seconds so I'm gonna try that tomorrow, but right now i'm very concern about it, this never happened last winter. :S

Yeeeahh same thing for me too!!
The last few days its taken me two times to try to start the car
Last year it never happened...

Did we even have -20 weather last winter? I dont remember

[3GFX]

Same, it happened the other day. You could here the cylinders firing through the MS intake. It was wierd. Sounded like a big block 4 cylinder, it went away after like 1KM. I always let the car warm up to. This weather...she sucks.

[Chiburashka]

Technically it's safe to drive once the RPM's drop and the overall temp is still low, you don't have to wait until the gauge shows it's warm. I still let it warm up fully before I drive anywhere, especially for the sake of turning on the heat full blast. Canada is too cold for me....

[1stMazda]

HolyChit mang give the thing time to warm up!! A minute and a half to 2 minutes is all it needs and the revs will drop.Plus your probably doing harm to your engine bogging it like that!! People can say what they want about warm up times, but you need to let the oil warm up to get the oil pressure up properly in these cold temps or you will cause undo wear.


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well, i gave it about 8-10 min today (-19), mmm still the revs are high, after work (-7) another 8-10 min, mmm it took another 5-10 min to warm up and start droping the revs, still, car starts at the frist try

[Flagrum_3]

well, i gave it about 8-10 min today (-19), mmm still the revs are high, after work (-7) another 8-10 min, mmm it took another 5-10 min to warm up and start droping the revs, still, car starts at the frist try

Well I would say that something is definetly wrong.I 've been starting the car in the same temps, I put the key in the on position, wait a few seconds than start...no problems, it then revs to approx 1700rpm, within a minute shes near 1000rpm but I listen for the engine to settle so by 1.5 to 2. minutes its revving @ 1k even.Thats when I drive off.Within a block and a half its at normal temps and at idle rpm....I suggest you take it in to be inspected because what you are experiencing is not normal.(Expect to have to leave the vehicle there for a while)


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[Flagrum_3]

Yeeeahh same thing for me too!!
The last few days its taken me two times to try to start the car
Last year it never happened...

Did we even have -20 weather last winter? I dont remember

We had a couple of weeks last year where it was much colder, I remember one night it was -40.Which I had to work in.

Its pretty normal in these extreme temps for engines not to start first try.But you can try a few things to eliminate it in most cases.Like Mr Technical says key to 'ON' position, wait a few seconds than 'Start.'
I will had; when you reach your designation and before shutting your engine down make sure everything is 'OFF' such as lights, wipers, radio, fan etc and put your parking brake on just before starting, that way your driving lights will not come on...so when you go to start it cold there is no unnecessary drain on the battery, giving more juice to the starter.


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[mazda36]

yesterday samething happened again.... and I heard something like a duck "quuuuaaak" under the hood(around the engine)... it last like 3 sec, after warm up everything was fine. I think my car need a body check =(

[Flagrum_3]

yesterday samething happened again.... and I heard something like a duck "quuuuaaak" under the hood(around the engine)... it last like 3 sec, after warm up everything was fine. I think my car need a body check =(

Maybe you should look under the hood for any dead ducks!! ;-)

Eh, its not abnormal for animals to get into engine compartments for heat.


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[3GFX]

...you don't have to wait until the gauge shows it's warm...

Keep in mind that the guage doesn't show actual temperature, the car could be warm before the guage reads cold. Its electrical and shows a mid range temp not actual temp.

[majic]

Maybe you should look under the hood for any dead ducks!! ;-)

Eh, its not abnormal for animals to get into engine compartments for heat.


ya.. i had a bunny under my car yesterday.. it was still there when i started the car and as soon as i started backing out, it jumped from under the wheels.. silly wwabbit!

[bubba1983]

hahah
the quack noise reminds me of starting the car when its already started, hahah grindin teh starter or whatever

[majic]

Keep in mind that the guage doesn't show actual temperature, the car could be warm before the guage reads cold. Its electrical and shows a mid range temp not actual temp.

not sure what you mean 'actual' temperature but the temp gauge is for the engine coolant.. as the engine warms up, the coolant warms up so they are directly proportional..

in my case, the heating system is directly proportional to the engine's temperature (engine coolant gauge - ECG).. i keep my heater off or on 1, until the ECG reaches about middle, which can take about 5-7min of driving.. after that i set it to 2-3 and HOT air finally comes through..

just think of the outside air having to be warmed up by the engine.. if the engine is cold then the incoming air will be cold as well

[Flagrum_3]

The other night I'm parked at Victoria Park Station and going to show a workmate my stereo system, so I hit the unlock button...click,...two friggin huge rats come tearing out from under my car!! scared the begesus out of us.
I got a little worried,...Hope they weren't chewing on any wires!!


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[3GFX]

not sure what you mean 'actual' temperature but the temp gauge is for the engine coolant.. as the engine warms up, the coolant warms up so they are directly proportional..

in my case, the heating system is directly proportional to the engine's temperature (engine coolant gauge - ECG).. i keep my heater off or on 1, until the ECG reaches about middle, which can take about 5-7min of driving.. after that i set it to 2-3 and HOT air finally comes through..

just think of the outside air having to be warmed up by the engine.. if the engine is cold then the incoming air will be cold as well

Temperature guages on cars these days are not temperature accurate. For example. Your car driving along in this weather (when the engine is warm) will show the needle in the centre of the guage indicating its warm.

In the summer when your pushing it on the road, or if per say you went to do a hot lap, that guage wouldn't fluctuate because it's not showing the actual temperature.

This was implicated into all cars years ago so that the majority of drivers can simply read the gauge and be content with the reading. The centre of the guage shows range of appropriate temperature for the engine to run at, rather than the actual temperature. Notice when you push the car, that gauge won't fluctuate at all.

[+--SM M3--+]

i usually start my car and warm it up for 4 minutes or so...the length of a song :)

that way the oil gets a chance to get warm in the engine and the transmission...coz shifting is not fun when the oil's cold...plus imagine if u were in the cold for a few hours and all of a sudden some told you to go run a marathon...you would want to warm up first before you go right?

[3GFX]

...imagine if u were in the cold for a few hours and all of a sudden some told you to go run a marathon...you would want to warm up first before you go right?...

YES

...and that's probably the best way sum it all up.

[EvilEric]

I remember reading an article about how it didn't matter after that much during the winter if the car was warmed up or not for the engine. I think it was like 2-3 minutes was it? My Rev needle moves more slowly.

I know that certain people on old cars need to turn off all heat, lights, radio EVERYTHING to get the car to start during winter. Maybe it's an electrical issue.

[3GFX]

I know that certain people on old cars need to turn off all heat, lights, radio EVERYTHING to get the car to start during winter. Maybe it's an electrical issue.

Time for a new battery!

[EvilEric]

LOL Time for a new damn car :P

[MajesticBlueNTO]

i usually start my car and warm it up for 4 minutes or so...the length of a song :)

that way the oil gets a chance to get warm in the engine and the transmission...coz shifting is not fun when the oil's cold...plus imagine if u were in the cold for a few hours and all of a sudden some told you to go run a marathon...you would want to warm up first before you go right?

you warm up for a marathon by stretching and jogging lightly to get the blood flowing to the muscles and your heart and lungs prepared.... not sitting idle on the spot doing nothing.

using your analogy, you're doing nothing to warm up your car by sitting for the 4 minutes.

friction in the transmission gears heat the oil faster than by waiting for heat transfer through the metal casing. same with the engine, an engine under load warms up faster than an idling engine.

i'm sure it's been echoed enough in this thread that 30 seconds to 1 minute on a modern car is more than enough idle time after a cold start.

gone are the days where you'd have to wait to release the choke and had worries about ice forming on a carburated engine.

[wtom]

approx 30 second start-up and idle here in the mornings. Definitely not more than 30 seconds unless I have to scrape snow/ice off. ;)

[Xerox]

you warm up for a marathon by stretching and jogging lightly to get the blood flowing to the muscles and your heart and lungs prepared.... not sitting idle on the spot doing nothing.

using your analogy, you're doing nothing to warm up your car by sitting for the 4 minutes..

Yeah, the analogy isn't perfect but I think you might be reading into it a bit too much. Technically even when the car is in park the engine is still running and therefore fluids are flowing and slowly warming up (the engine oil/coolant anyway - have fun waiting for the tranny oil to warm up, that's gonna take a loooong time) - albiet it won't warm up as quickly as if the engine is under load as you point out in next quote.



friction in the transmission gears heat the oil faster than by waiting for heat transfer through the metal casing. same with the engine, an engine under load warms up faster than an idling engine.

i'm sure it's been echoed enough in this thread that 30 seconds to 1 minute on a modern car is more than enough idle time after a cold start.


I've read many articles saying that approx. 30 sec is enough before driving off and anything beyond that is just a waste of gas. You should then pamper the car while driving until all fluids are at proper operating temp (kinda like how the BMW M's have fluctuating redlines depending on operating temperature of car).

In the summer I let the engine run for approx. 30 sec.
In the winter I have to admit I'm guilty of letting the car sit for atleast 1 minute or until the revs come down to about 1,100rpm (I don't have time to wait until it drops to 7,500rpm). I still do this even knowing that the engine/tranny fluids will warm up much quicker when under load.

[majic]

you warm up for a marathon by stretching and jogging lightly to get the blood flowing to the muscles and your heart and lungs prepared.... not sitting idle on the spot doing nothing.

using your analogy, you're doing nothing to warm up your car by sitting for the 4 minutes.

friction in the transmission gears heat the oil faster than by waiting for heat transfer through the metal casing. same with the engine, an engine under load warms up faster than an idling engine.

i'm sure it's been echoed enough in this thread that 30 seconds to 1 minute on a modern car is more than enough idle time after a cold start.

gone are the days where you'd have to wait to release the choke and had worries about ice forming on a carburated engine.

looks like you beat me to it ;)

anything more than 30sec is wasting gas and time.. maybe someone will listen to mr techical ;)

[3GFX]

Some people don't realize that 30 seconds is a decent amount of time. A lot of people think turn key and go. 30 seconds is plenty of time if you sit there and think about it.

Its like brushing your teeth, do you actually brush the recommended 3 minutes?

[EvilEric]

Some people don't realize that 30 seconds is a decent amount of time. A lot of people think turn key and go. 30 seconds is plenty of time if you sit there and think about it.

Its like brushing your teeth, do you actually brush the recommended 3 minutes?

No and I have the cavities to prove it. I'm british I swear.

[Flagrum_3]

I remember reading an article about how it didn't matter after that much during the winter if the car was warmed up or not for the engine. I think it was like 2-3 minutes was it? My Rev needle moves more slowly.

I know that certain people on old cars need to turn off all heat, lights, radio EVERYTHING to get the car to start during winter. Maybe it's an electrical issue.

Its not that they "HAVE TO" shut everything off, its just the smart thing to do.Even with our new cars...In cold temps your battery's 'Starting ability" or 'cold cranking amps" deminishs by quite a bit, as much as 50% in -20C...so why would you leave everything on?...You want all the juice available at the moment to drive your starter motor...its only common-sense.After the car starts you can turn on whatever you like, as a matter of fact the more you turn on the more it helps the engine to warm up by putting demand on your alternater therefore more demand on the engine.


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[Flagrum_3]

looks like you beat me to it ;)

anything more than 30sec is wasting gas and time.. maybe someone will listen to mr techical ;)

Maybe you should too!....He stated 30sec to a minute, and he is partially correct, 30 seconds or even a minute may not be enough in cases where it is very cold.You must adjust your warm up times with the temps...(obvious to some but not to others).Again the main reason for warm up is to warm the oil so it may circulate properly before putting any strain on the engine.This is one benefit to using full synthetic oil, it will flow better than semi or regular oil in extreme cold, but still not perfect.
Back in the day you warmed vehicles up basically because of the lousy fuel delivery systems, but today thats not a problem, but today engines are built with much tighter tolerances, which means more friction hence the importance of proper oil pressure/flow before putting strain on the motor.However 4 minutes or even 3 may be excessive warm up times....basically watch and listen, when the fast idle drops to approx 1000-1100rpm listen to your engine, you will then hear it settle (lower gruntier sound), the revs may still be at 1000rpm but this means everyting has seated properly...with my 3, and the cold of the last several days it has taken approx 1.5 minutes for my engine to settle, thats my sign to drive off at a relaxed pace for several blocks till the rest of the drive train warms to temp.
This method has worked for me through several cars and decades and I never experienced premature engine wear or failure on any of them.


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[MajesticBlueNTO]

5w20 oil will/should flow at up to -35C regardless of synthetic or non-synthetic... that's the characteristic of a multi-weight oil. it isn't a congealed goo that won't flow on a cold start-up; it is however more viscous than at normal operating temp but will make it from the pan to the head and other oil journals in the engine.

Regarding tighter tolerances, i think i've said it before, the main benefit to "warm up" is to allow the pistons to expand to their proper shape to properly seal the combustion chamber (imagine back in diaper days when we'd be trying to shove an oval toy through a round hole..that's a cold piston -oval- in the cylinder -round hole-). Otherwise, any unburned fuel (and there will be since the car is running rich in Open Loop mode) may leak past the cylinder walls and mix with the oil, and combustion blow-by may also mix with the oil. during normal operating temps, the piston rings seal this off.

note that it is this dissimilar shape between the 2 that will cause the most strain ...and oil, whether highly viscous or flowing like water, will do its best to *lessen* the damage done by friction, not totally prevent friction damage.

as for the revs dropping, it has more to do with when the car makes it into Closed Loop mode than things seated properly...and just because the car is in Closed Loop mode, doesn't mean that it has fully warmed up. Upon start-up, the revs are high as the ECU is dumping more fuel (Open Loop, rich mixture) and isn't factoring the 1st o2 sensor into the fuel mixture equation. Once certain parameters are met, the ECU then goes into Closed Loop mode and will factor the 1st o2 sensor into the fuel mixture, which is why the revs drop as it doesn't have to be dumping as much fuel.

even in this frigid -30C (without wind chill) in Regina, i start the car, wait 30 seconds to 1 minute, then drive off easily for the first few kilometres (with or without plugging in the car overnight) as the car is still warming up while driving sedately.

[wtom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubba1983http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=142035#post142035)
thank you mr.technical...

:)



In the winter I have to admit I'm guilty of letting the car sit for atleast 1 minute or until the revs come down to about 1,100rpm (I don't have time to wait until it drops to 7,500rpm).

Johnny-boy, keep your foot off the gas when idling the car!!! lol he meant 750rpm BTW. ;)

[Xerox]

Quote:


:)




Johnny-boy, keep your foot off the gas when idling the car!!! lol he meant 750rpm BTW. ;)

wooops! Yeah, I meant 750rpm

[Flagrum_3]

5w20 oil will/should flow at up to -35C regardless of synthetic or non-synthetic... that's the characteristic of a multi-weight oil. it isn't a congealed goo that won't flow on a cold start-up; it is however more viscous than at normal operating temp but will make it from the pan to the head and other oil journals in the engine.

Regarding tighter tolerances, i think i've said it before, the main benefit to "warm up" is to allow the pistons to expand to their proper shape to properly seal the combustion chamber (imagine back in diaper days when we'd be trying to shove an oval toy through a round hole..that's a cold piston -oval- in the cylinder -round hole-). Otherwise, any unburned fuel (and there will be since the car is running rich in Open Loop mode) may leak past the cylinder walls and mix with the oil, and combustion blow-by may also mix with the oil. during normal operating temps, the piston rings seal this off.

note that it is this dissimilar shape between the 2 that will cause the most strain ...and oil, whether highly viscous or flowing like water, will do its best to *lessen* the damage done by friction, not totally prevent friction damage.

as for the revs dropping, it has more to do with when the car makes it into Closed Loop mode than things seated properly...and just because the car is in Closed Loop mode, doesn't mean that it has fully warmed up. Upon start-up, the revs are high as the ECU is dumping more fuel (Open Loop, rich mixture) and isn't factoring the 1st o2 sensor into the fuel mixture equation. Once certain parameters are met, the ECU then goes into Closed Loop mode and will factor the 1st o2 sensor into the fuel mixture, which is why the revs drop as it doesn't have to be dumping as much fuel.

even in this frigid -30C (without wind chill) in Regina, i start the car, wait 30 seconds to 1 minute, then drive off easily for the first few kilometres (with or without plugging in the car overnight) as the car is still warming up while driving sedately.

I beg to differ with you in that a conventional oil whatever the viscousity, will not run/pour as freely as a true synthetic, that is a fact.

My statement concerning the 'settling' of the engine has nothing to do with the closed loop cycle but does have to do with the conforming of the pistons/rings to the cylinder walls.As I stated the engine will settle while still holding the same rpm usually 1000-1100rpm, it is quite noticible if you listen...it is also realized that at this point the vehicle has not reached proper temp but as it has settled it is a good sign that the oil pressure has stabilized and is quite safe to place a strain on the engine at that point.
Now if you want to give people the impression that its quite alright to drive off after 30 seconds in -40C temps, eh thats you, but I'll stick to what I know and stay on the safe side....again its never let me down and for the few extra cents of fuel compared to an oil burning engine down the road, ....I'll pay the extra few cents thank you.


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[MajesticBlueNTO]

I beg to differ with you in that a conventional oil whatever the viscousity, will not run/pour as freely as a true synthetic, that is a fact.

My statement concerning the 'settling' of the engine has nothing to do with the closed loop cycle but does have to do with the conforming of the pistons/rings to the cylinder walls.As I stated the engine will settle while still holding the same rpm usually 1000-1100rpm, it is quite noticible if you listen...it is also realized that at this point the vehicle has not reached proper temp but as it has settled it is a good sign that the oil pressure has stabilized and is quite safe to place a strain on the engine at that point.
Now if you want to give people the impression that its quite alright to drive off after 30 seconds in -40C temps, eh thats you, but I'll stick to what I know and stay on the safe side....again its never let me down and for the few extra cents of fuel compared to an oil burning engine down the road, ....I'll pay the extra few cents thank you.


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Let me clarify, in the temperatures we see in the GTA, a conventional 5w20 and a synthetic 5w20 will have similar flow characterstics. The "fact" you mention comes in the lower pour point of a synthetic but, in the case of Mobil1 5w20, we will RARELY see -47C (http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_5W-20.asp). Mobil's conventional oil (Clean 5000) has a pour point of -39C (http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_Clean_5000.asp) again, a temp we'll rarely see in the GTA.

in the cases where the temps fall below the pour point and the block heater isn't plugged in, the car won't start period.

besides, to be classified as a 5w20 oil, both the conventional and synthetic have to fall within certain parameters and, as shown in the links above, the Mobil1 and Clean 5000 are close in CentiStoke and viscosity index values.

In these links, Castrol GTX 5w20 (conventional) (http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/p,q/psd_gtx_usa.pdf) and Castrol Syntec 5w20 (synthetic) (http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/p,q/pds_syntec_usa.pdf) have the same maximum low temperature cranking AND pumping viscosities. If anything, the Syntec should have a lower pumping viscosity number at -35C.

I'm not saying synthetic isn't necessary as its molecular 'purity' and stability is beneficial in temperature extremes, and to the additive package that can be added to synthetics and not conventionals.


it's not just me giving off the impression that driving off easily after 30 seconds to 1 minute in a a modern automobile is fine (even in -40C temps; again, temps we don't see in the GTA) but that of other of engineers (what you read in owner's manuals has been sanitized by the legal dept to cover their ass for the morons that decide to WOT a cold engine). again, idling for too long on a cold start will not only introduce unburned fuel and combustion blow-by to the oil, but also acids that are formed from that mixture - acids that can etch the cylinder walls and/or pistons and pit the piston rings; which will also lead to oil burning.

best thing to do is to monitor the oil level, regardless of how the engine is 'warmed up'. fact of the matter is that engines are quite robust and will rarely "let you down" even when neglected to hell (like the 350 chevy that went 400,000 MILES without an oil and filter change but 'regular top ups').

[Flagrum_3]

I'll just say one thing about the oil and its from personal experience; Whenever I have used a conventional oil in a vehicle and then switched to synthetic I have always noticed easier starts in frigid weather along with the engine settling much quicker, mind you I also found it would take slightly longer for the engine to get to normal operating temps... it is not just my conclusion but that of many others (read many articles on this), that a synthetic will provide much better protection (especially to the top-half) of an engine which is started in extreme conditions.
All this is I believe very relative to the outside temps and duration of such.I think we are on the same line here as we would both agree that excessive warm-up times will do probably as much harm as not warming up enough.
Thirty seconds might be enough if temps are moderate and I never said that it wasn't, I'm basically saying listen to your engine you will hear it settle and when it settles, is directly proportional to the outside temps.I have found in more moderate temps 5C to -5C the engine will settle within a minute but as you get to the colder temps such as we've been experiencing lately that time has increased to approx 1.5 minutes.I personally would never attempt a drive off in 30 seconds in -20 to -40 temps which we do experience here, such as last year but admittedly its rare for the latter.I would be surprised if someone actually could, because as I remember my engine sounded like an old tractor for the first little while and damned if I'm going to put strain on it at that time.
Anyways to each thier own, but I think we can agree that 1. An engine must be given some time to warm up arguably .5-1.5 minutes but 2. going beyond that time period may be excessive, wasteful and damaging for many reasons.


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[MajesticBlueNTO]

Anyways to each thier own, but I think we can agree that 1. An engine must be given some time to warm up arguably .5-1.5 minutes but 2. going beyond that time period may be excessive, wasteful and damaging for many reasons.


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http://www.fmvperformance.com/forum_items/Smileys/default/cheers.gif

[mazda36]

thanks for the comments guys, usually I warm up my car more than 5mins and lastweek I even try 8mins+. THE DUCK QUAAAKKK HAPPENED AGAIN...... I guess I will change to synthetic oil and helps its start in the winter time.