PDA

View Full Version : Are hybrids as cracked up as they seem to be (for the environment)?



majic
03-14-2007, 08:00 PM
interesting article.. can't comment on the validity but seems reasonable..

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188



March 7, 2007

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

3GFX
03-14-2007, 08:16 PM
That's an excellent article. I've always though the Prius milage has been exagerated. I'm putting my hopes into hydrogen like the new BMW 7 that was just released. I'm also paying attention to the Mazda RX8 Hydrogen that just now is going through its winter testing stage. There's is still hope for alternative fuels, hybrids are crap.

Sean80
03-14-2007, 11:40 PM
Hybrids are only good if you drive them like you are 80 years old. The more power that is needed, the more gas they use and less electricity.

Sean80
03-14-2007, 11:49 PM
Hydrogen is where its at though. Companies need to start realizing this and get on with the research. Infrastructure is the next problem.... where do I fill up with hydrogen??? It's only a matter of time, so people need to get involved in hydrogen because it's the alternative fuel of the future. And you can be sure as hell the oil companies will the the last to start this initiative.

Skarbro
03-15-2007, 05:35 AM
Nice article. I've been trying to discourage my buddy from buying a hybrid Vue and this is more ammo. ;)

TheProfessor
03-15-2007, 08:32 AM
Great article, though do you really think a Toyota will only live to see 100000 miles whereas a Hummer will last to 300000?

Wild Weasel
03-15-2007, 08:49 AM
I'd be interested in having him cite the sources for a lot of that info.

It seems a bit sensationalized.

Note that one of the big reasons to drive a hybrid these days as a tree-hugger isn't because they're better for the environment NOW. There's also an argument to be made for supporting the development so that they will be better for the environment in the future.

This is the sort of thing that's driving battery technology forward so hopefully down the road there won't be so big an environmental expense involved.

majic
03-15-2007, 09:39 AM
i was wondering when you'd chime in since you've been pretty quiet lately ;)

anyway.. that's why i questioned the credibility of the article but it was interesting to see (aside for the environmental impact and all) the impact of the 'proper' fuel economy testing that actually decreases the economy by 20% - the real numbers so that the folks can actually attain them..

Wild Weasel
03-15-2007, 10:14 AM
Well... you said I was allowed to post again... :chuckle

Even at the old fuel economy ratings, they've never been a great option as a means of saving money on gas when you consider the premium you pay up front. Frankly, to save money we should all be driving diesel's. VW TDI's should be the most common cars on the roads.

As I said though... if people are buying them to do their part for the environment, I don't think this sort of analysis of the environmental impact is of all that much value in debunking their benefit. If nobody bought them, nobody would make them and the technology would be progressing at a much slower rate.

I'm sure that eventually we will get to the point where they can cleanly make batteries that will power a plug-in vehicle capable of being a daily driver. Current hybrids are just a stepping stone.

Skarbro
03-15-2007, 10:20 AM
Not to mention the cost of replacing the batteries - which is inevitable.

EvilEric
03-15-2007, 10:21 AM
Anyone tried electric's in California? They have designated places where you can "recharge" all over main cities. It's pretty convient.

MajesticBlueNTO
03-15-2007, 11:45 AM
Not to mention the cost of replacing the batteries - which is inevitable.

as well as battery disposal

MajesticBlueNTO
03-15-2007, 11:48 AM
sounds like the whole ethanol debate (http://www6.autonet.ca/Environment/story.cfm?story=/Environment/2007/03/07/3709757-ap.html)

majic
03-15-2007, 08:26 PM
another article (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051123/hybrid_cars_051123/20051123/) (from about a year and a half ago) with some myths and misconceptions about hybrids..

mazidane
03-16-2007, 12:57 AM
Anyone tried electric's in California? They have designated places where you can "recharge" all over main cities. It's pretty convient.

Do they still exist? I thought they were all taken off the market, according to this video at least!

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=160183#post160183

SABIO
03-18-2007, 09:06 PM
My gripe with hybrids is the extra cost to buy them.
Yes you save on fuel. But.. You will never see the difference.
Unless you drive 100,000Km a year for 5 years....

Flagrum_3
03-19-2007, 04:57 PM
I'd be interested in having him cite the sources for a lot of that info.

It seems a bit sensationalized.

Note that one of the big reasons to drive a hybrid these days as a tree-hugger isn't because they're better for the environment NOW. There's also an argument to be made for supporting the development so that they will be better for the environment in the future.

This is the sort of thing that's driving battery technology forward so hopefully down the road there won't be so big an environmental expense involved.

I never thought I'd do this but I'm in agreement with WW here ;-)

It looks like the transition is gaining some power as the TTC has decided on the Hybrid vehicles, we'll be receiving 90 new Hybrid buses very shortly just at our garage! I think its 600 transit wide and happily getting rid of those friggen excessive smoke emitting GM's.....let's just hope they don't turn out to be lemons like the natural gas crap they tried.


_3


.

Wild Weasel
03-19-2007, 05:00 PM
I never thought I'd do this but I'm in agreement with WW here ;-)


This has happened a few times lately. Are you feeling ok? http://www.precizion.org/forums/images/smiles/huh.gif

Flagrum_3
03-19-2007, 05:04 PM
Actually I've been feeling a little under the weather lately ;-P
thanks for asking!


_3


.

3GFX
03-19-2007, 05:10 PM
Its either sickness or the fact that WW is finally gonna move into a Mazda ;)

mazidane
03-19-2007, 11:47 PM
My gripe with hybrids is the extra cost to buy them.
Yes you save on fuel. But.. You will never see the difference.
Unless you drive 100,000Km a year for 5 years....

Apparently the Conservative Government has proposed a $2,000 rebate for anyone who purchases Hybrids, not sure if this applies to leases as well or not.

In any case is $2,000 enough to offset the difference to realize fuel savings?

I think it needs to be a bit more, perhaps around $5,000, nonetheless its a start!

3GFX
03-19-2007, 11:52 PM
Agreed, the avg price differance of a hybrid is $5000 over the standard gasoline powered car. None the less $2000 is better than nothing.

Gizzmo_jr
03-20-2007, 12:06 AM
I can vouch that Sudbury is a dead zone. It's all rock, looks so depressing and stacks everywhere. I have family in Sudbury and the neighboring town of Falconbridge (another mining hole)