Mazda of Toronto - service questions

[J-Wo]

Hey everyone, I have my 2005 Mazda3 Sport GT for service today at Mazda of Toronto. My first time getting service there after hearing so many good things from here, plus they are very close to my work. Previously I've gone to Avante Richmond Hill (where I bought the car) but more recently Markham Mazda because that's where I live. However I've really never been happy with Markham Mazda, especially their service dept.

The car is about 2.5 yrs old with 53,500 kms on it. Today I have the car in for the big 48,000 km scheduled maintenance package, for which they charge $210. They just called and recommended the following:

Alignment off, check and fix - $120
Replace transmission oil - $140
Replace brake oil - $140
Flush fuel injector system - $160
Clean throttle body (emission system) - $80

With tax and including the original $210 service fee, they offered me a "special rate" of $940 for the whole shebang -- plus they'd throw in a coupon for a free oil change for my next visit. I politely declined all the extras as I'm pretty sure I can do those for a lot less at my local mechanic. But to be honest I'm a novice when it comes to cars and in the past have been easily hoodwinked into extra services that are not required (ahem, Markham Mazda!). So I'd love to know what the rest of you guys have to say about this.

[S.F.W.]

I had, the last two items recommended to me at both 48k and 72k. I passed on both.

[Iturralde]

J-Wo,

I am like you in that I am a nocive at this stuff also.

SFW, you said that you passed on these things. My question on this would be, how do we know when the above items need to be changed?

For example, why would we need to flush the fuel injector system on a 2.5 year old car? I thought you would do this for an older car. Same goes with replacing the braking fluid.

Thank goodness my father in law is a mechanic, sucks that he is in Miami!

Confused....

X

[J-Wo]

Well I think I finally discovered a nice, friendly mechanic in Markham who I went to do replace my brake pads after Mazda said they were shot at about 45,000 kms. I'd feel a lot better if someone said that all those things I mentioned in the 1st post can be done easily at a local mechanic, or are any best done at a Mazda dealership? Thanks guys

[Wild Weasel]

What does the manual say when it comes to those maintenance items?

Do you have any reason to suspect your alignment might be off?

A bottle of fuel system cleaner should take care of the last two items for less than $20.

Bear in mind that the stuff dealers recommend is not necessarily required. They're just things that wouldn't hurt to do now and then, and make them some money. Check the manual to know what's required and when.

[Fuman]

the alignment, Gilmen will do for 80 bucks.
Gilman Auto Service
1940 Ellesmere Road
Suite 6
Scarborough, Ontario, M1H 2V7
Telephone:416 289-1388
Contact: Ray

The rest. I did as well but even earlier. (except the brake fluid)

[Xerox]

A bottle of fuel system cleaner should take care of the last two items for less than $20.


I wonder how that really compares to an actual flush (Flush fuel injector system). The dealer has special machines that cleans them right (like a vacuum type device)?

[S.F.W.]

J-Wo,

I am like you in that I am a nocive at this stuff also.

SFW, you said that you passed on these things. My question on this would be, how do we know when the above items need to be changed?

For example, why would we need to flush the fuel injector system on a 2.5 year old car? I thought you would do this for an older car. Same goes with replacing the braking fluid.

Thank goodness my father in law is a mechanic, sucks that he is in Miami!

Confused....

X

I went to a third party mechanic, and has him check out the car. Was told flushing the injector system, and cleaning the throttle body were not necessary. They may help the car perform a little better, but I wasn't having any performance issues.

[FLIPDADY]

I wonder how that really compares to an actual flush (Flush fuel injector system). The dealer has special machines that cleans them right (like a vacuum type device)?
Well I had mine flushed because I have high KM's. There's an actual machine that is hooked up to the fuel rail during the service. I use to get crappy gas mileage but noticed an improvement after.

[Cardinal Fang]

$940.00!!!!

That's incredible. My wife's TSX never had that much in repairs when she actually needed repairs.

[Wild Weasel]

What's involved when they do this flush? Do they remove the injectors and test flow rates and spray patterns and what not?

[Jeff-TheBiz]

I think the flush is a good idea if you do not do much highway (always at lower speeds) IIRC.

I was told not to bother, because my car is 25km on the highway at breakneck speed everyday, twice a day.

[Jeff-TheBiz]

BTW, Wo, what is your mileage like... not specifically, cuz really I wouldn't know if you did tell me, but how many kms are you getting out of a full tank? Approx?

[J-Wo]

TheBiz: my mileage is pretty crappy, but probably because I'm a pretty aggressive driver. I drive a mixture of 50/50 highway/city, and I have to admit I am pretty much always speeding or trying to pass someone so I can get to my destination faster... but I am trying to avoid hard breaks and hard accels, also using cruise control more (partially because of the new 50+km/h over speed limit laws!).

That being said my mileage is almost always over 10L/100km. For example just yesterday my odometer read ~400km since last fillup when the gas light when on, so I filled up and it was 43 L. That makes it ~ 10.75L/100km

[Fuman]

TheBiz: my mileage is pretty crappy, but probably because I'm a pretty aggressive driver. I drive a mixture of 50/50 highway/city, and I have to admit I am pretty much always speeding or trying to pass someone so I can get to my destination faster... but I am trying to avoid hard breaks and hard accels, also using cruise control more (partially because of the new 50+km/h over speed limit laws!).

That being said my mileage is almost always over 10L/100km. For example just yesterday my odometer read ~400km since last fillup when the gas light when on, so I filled up and it was 43 L. That makes it ~ 10.75L/100km

It sounds about right, if you are driving auto.
I get 9.8L/100KM on a more passive driving pattern

[J-Wo]

It sounds about right, if you are driving auto. I get 9.8L/100KM on a more passive driving patternYes that's right, I have an auto


What does the manual say when it comes to those maintenance items? Do you have any reason to suspect your alignment might be off?

I picked up the scheduled service menu at MOT.. . it simply says all those items listed should be inspected every 4 months or 8000 kms, it really never says when they should be flushed/replaced! I'm guessing the implication is do it whenever your service guy says to...

I also do feel that my alignment is a bit off, so I asked them to look at that (even though it is one of the inspection points for the 48000km service package). Sometimes on city roads I feel the car pulls to the left, but I always wondered if it was simply the roads on the specific route I use to get to work that are curved or uneven. However it is very minor and I really dont' notice it all the time but I wanted them to look at it anyway... So the service guy called and said something about the steering wheel having some problem so the alignment is off. I don't remember his exact wording but I wrote it down at work. He didn't make it sound like it was life and death though so he had no problems with me declining the service for now.


the alignment, Gilmen will do for 80 bucks...[...]...The rest. I did as well but even earlier. (except the brake fluid)
Meaning you did them at a 3rd party mechanic or at the dealership?

[Fuman]

Yes that's right, I have an auto



I picked up the scheduled service menu at MOT.. . it simply says all those items listed should be inspected every 4 months or 8000 kms, it really never says when they should be flushed/replaced! I'm guessing the implication is do it whenever your service guy says to...

I also do feel that my alignment is a bit off, so I asked them to look at that (even though it is one of the inspection points for the 48000km service package). Sometimes on city roads I feel the car pulls to the left, but I always wondered if it was simply the roads on the specific route I use to get to work that are curved or uneven. However it is very minor and I really dont' notice it all the time but I wanted them to look at it anyway... So the service guy called and said something about the steering wheel having some problem so the alignment is off. I don't remember his exact wording but I wrote it down at work. He didn't make it sound like it was life and death though so he had no problems with me declining the service for now.


Meaning you did them at a 3rd party mechanic or at the dealership?

Alignment I did at Gilmen. Brake Fluid I did at Motor Workshop

Transmission/Throttle Body/Fuel Injector was all done at the dealership.

[Flagrum_3]

Well I'm going to stir the pot here because this whole issue has been discussed or should I say beaten to death before on this forum....

"None of the extra services suggested, with the exception of the alignment are necessary at the OP's specified mileage of 48k"

Its a good practice to have the alignment checked atleast every 2-3 years as our roads can be pretty harsh on our steering and suspension components but,
as for the tranny fluid; Its a sealed unit folks!!(auto); meaning unless the fluid shows signs of contamination or a burnt smell, it never needs replacing.
Same goes for the brake fluid!!...What a line of shit that is,...brake fluid will never need replacing, unless its has been contaminated and the only way to do so, is to leave your brake reservoir cap off or if the brake lines or hoses, have been replaced or you like submerging your vehicle in pools of water.
Finally as for the injector flush,...maybe after 120k+ kms and an obvious drop in performance is noticed, otherwise as WW meantioned a bottle of quality fuel injector cleaner a couple of times a year will do the job fine.

As far as I'm concerned its a total cash grab, and dealers should be ashamed of themselves for trying to soak unsuspecting customers!! $640 in unnessary work!!...Shame!



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[Wild Weasel]

Not true about the brake fluid. It should be changed after 80 to 100k km's or so. Moreso if you're an aggressive driver and tend to heat up the fluid more than the average bear.

It takes a long time, but it does slowly absorb water from the air. It's not a completely sealed system.

[Flagrum_3]

Not true about the brake fluid. It should be changed after 80 to 100k km's or so. Moreso if you're an aggressive driver and tend to heat up the fluid more than the average bear.

It takes a long time, but it does slowly absorb water from the air. It's not a completely sealed system.

It takes a very long time for brake fluid to absorb enough water (moisture), for it to be contaminated enough to need replacing...like 10-15+ years under normal conditions, and sorry but the system is completely sealed and has to be or else your brakes system would not function properly...But I'll agree that if you do heat your system up to extreme temperatures and we would be talking race track type heat here, it may need changing eventually.But for probably 99% of those who drive it would never be neccessary.


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[Wild Weasel]

The system is not completely sealed. The reservoir is vented to the atmosphere to allow the fluid to go down over time.

[Fuman]

brake fluid wise:
if you notice your brake pedal getting mushy after a few stops. Get a brake fluid flush because that usually means your brake fluid is boiling. It will boil at lower temperatures if your brake fluid is contaminated with water.
Also check your brake fluid level and top it off (assuming what WW saying is true).

As for your transmission fluid. Check it. It is suppose to be red. If yours is a relatively dark or smells burnt (as Flagrum said) you should change it

[Wild Weasel]

DO NOT TOP UP YOUR BRAKE FLUID!!!!

Unless there's a leak somewhere in the system, your car will not "consume" brake fluid.

The fluid level goes down as the pads wear. When you put new pads on, the fluid will come back up. If you'd topped it up, then it could overflow and brake fluid does very nasty things to paint!

If the fluid level is dangerously low (the reservoir is near empty) then have it checked out to find out where it's going.

[Fuman]

DO NOT TOP UP YOUR BRAKE FLUID!!!!

Unless there's a leak somewhere in the system, your car will not "consume" brake fluid.

The fluid level goes down as the pads wear. When you put new pads on, the fluid will come back up. If you'd topped it up, then it could overflow and brake fluid does very nasty things to paint!

If the fluid level is dangerously low (the reservoir is near empty) then have it checked out to find out where it's going.
how much does the brake fluid level change when the pads wear?

Sorry should of been more explicit. Fill it back up to the appropriate level (should be a max line) and get it checked out. I was thinking of a brake line fluid leak.

[Wild Weasel]

It goes down quite a bit, though not all the way down to the minimum line.

If you have or suspect a leak and put more in, ensure you let whoever is fixing it know that you've added some.

If you're not sure you have a leak, check your pads and replace if necessary.

As I said though... never ever add brake fluid as a maintenance procedure. It's not necessary and can end up harmful if it overflows.

[Flagrum_3]

First of all, sorry WW but the reservoir is not vented.The brake system is completely sealed, otherwise the fluid would draw moisture from the atmosphere (which is a natural tendancy with brake fluid), this definitely would be bad....The level will drop naturally to take up space in the system when the brake pads wear.But lets not forget that the reservoir is shared by both the brakes and the clutch, if your vehicle is equipped with a standard transmission.There is absolutely no problem in adding fluid to the reservoir, in fact it may be neccessary as the brake pads or clutch disc wear.When a brake service is done it is the usual practice to check the reservoir level and if its high to drain the reservior partially before installing new pads or a clutch disc....atleast its supposed to be done in this manner if the technician is competent.


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[Wild Weasel]

It DOES draw moisture from the atmosphere slowly over time.

Not much... but it does. If it were sealed, then it would hiss when the pressure equalized when you took off the cap. :)

[Flagrum_3]

It DOES draw moisture from the atmosphere slowly over time.

Not much... but it does. If it were sealed, then it would hiss when the pressure equalized when you took off the cap. :)

Yeah it would draw moisture from the system over a decade maybe!, but that would be thru condensation drawn thru lines, seals etc; and the system doesn't hiss because its not a pressurized system like say the fuel system, its only pressurized once the pedal is actuated.


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[Wild Weasel]

If it's a sealed system... and the fluid level is going down over time... what then fills the space in the reservoir no longer filled with fluid?

If it's sealed, then I suppose it must contain a slight vacuum. That would hiss when you removed the cap.

And the fluid in the reservoir is never pressurized, whether you're applying the brakes or not.

[Flagrum_3]

If it's a sealed system... and the fluid level is going down over time... what then fills the space in the reservoir no longer filled with fluid?

If it's sealed, then I suppose it must contain a slight vacuum. That would hiss when you removed the cap.

And the fluid in the reservoir is never pressurized, whether you're applying the brakes or not.

1.Slight vacuum

2.Go out right now, pull off the cap and tell me what happens:chuckle

3.I never said it was, you did!


WW you want to change the subject to something more interesting, like lets say snow tires vs. all seasons:chuckle

...just kiddin mang....but hey lets go take your Sunflier out for a boot....its still running isnt it?


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[Wild Weasel]

You said it was pressurized when the pedal is pressed, in response to my comment about it hissing when you open the cap. The implication is that when the pedal is pressed, it will hiss, right? I was just clarifying. :)

Sunfire runs like a charm... and has reasonably fresh brake fluid in it to boot! :bana

The bottom line here is that brake fluid DOES need to be changed, though not very often. Some will recommend as often as every 2 years, though I tend to think you can go well beyond that so long as there are no symtoms of issues such as a mushy pedal. That's why I recommended 80 to 100k km's. Roughly the same as the coolant.

Incidentally, I put my snows on last Saturday and am now looking forward to driving around people on all-seasons when we get our first good blizzard. :chuckle

[Flagrum_3]

Try what I said; take your reservoir cap off and get someone to press the brake pedal, actuallly don't do it as you'll get brake fluid squirting everywhere.What causes the brakes fluid in the reservoir to squirt?....pressure, but its called hydraulic pressure.

Hey its all good, you'll probably have to wait till January for any real snow. and I wasn't joking about taking the Sunchicken out for a boot!...I always did like the Z24s and Gts....almost got one myself.

The bottom line is brake fluid never needs changing except for extreme circumstances, time to time the system might need bleeding to release air trapped in the system, the air is what causes 'mushy brakes'...which leads to my next pointer; when people have higher mileage on their vehicles and are getting their brakes serviced it might be a good idea to ask the techs to bleed the system.


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[srbin]

Hey everyone, I have my 2005 Mazda3 Sport GT for service today at Mazda of Toronto. My first time getting service there after hearing so many good things from here, plus they are very close to my work. Previously I've gone to Avante Richmond Hill (where I bought the car) but more recently Markham Mazda because that's where I live. However I've really never been happy with Markham Mazda, especially their service dept.

The car is about 2.5 yrs old with 53,500 kms on it. Today I have the car in for the big 48,000 km scheduled maintenance package, for which they charge $210. They just called and recommended the following:

Alignment off, check and fix - $120
Replace transmission oil - $140
Replace brake oil - $140
Flush fuel injector system - $160
Clean throttle body (emission system) - $80

With tax and including the original $210 service fee, they offered me a "special rate" of $940 for the whole shebang -- plus they'd throw in a coupon for a free oil change for my next visit. I politely declined all the extras as I'm pretty sure I can do those for a lot less at my local mechanic. But to be honest I'm a novice when it comes to cars and in the past have been easily hoodwinked into extra services that are not required (ahem, Markham Mazda!). So I'd love to know what the rest of you guys have to say about this.

I went to MOT today to have the annual service and was offered all of the above for $740. Should I feel more special??? :) The car is a little over a year old with 57,000km and the only problem i had to report was squeaky seatbelt which they replaced under warranty (thought that was wear&tear with 20K warranty?). They also installed engine mount and replaced the engine cover for free. That is why I drive over 20km to MOT. :))) Somehow I trust them. :))

Like WW mentioned it's better/cheaper to do some of the above stuff yourself than wasting that much money.

[J-Wo]

The car is about 2.5 yrs old with 53,500 kms on it. Today I have the car in for the big 48,000 km scheduled maintenance package, for which they charge $210. They just called and recommended the following:

Alignment off, check and fix - $120
Replace transmission oil - $140
Replace brake oil - $140
Flush fuel injector system - $160
Clean throttle body (emission system) - $80

Hey everyone, just wanted to update this thread. Back in November I brought my car in and was quoted the above recommendations by MoT totaling $640. Today I brought my car in for another oil change (4 months since last one) and was reminded that the above recommendations have not been done. My service manager is Vincent, and here are some quotes he left me on my voice mail:


both tranny and brake fluids are discoloured, recommend flush both
warned if tranny fluid not flushed, may void the 5 yr transmission warranty
clean throttle body based on carbon deposits and sticky gas pedal


But here's the thing: I had all those things done (including fuel injector flush) at my own auto body shop a month ago! Mind you I think he only drained the tranny, brake, and fuel injector fluids and replaced them with OEM fluids from Markham Mazda. I don't think he did a real "flush". He also cleaned the throttle body for me for free, and total charge was only $190.

I'm going to give Vincent the benefit of the doubt and assume he is only looking at my last service record and see that I declined all their recommendations. But do you guys think he is trying to trick me? I mean if the tranny and brake fluids were just replaced why would he tell me they are discoloured?

[yearoftherat]

Well did you show him the workorders from the shop where you got work done? If he doesn't know about the work you had done somewhere else, he is going on the assumption that you never had the work done to begin with.

[FLIPDADY]

When you come in for your next service your records will tell the service advisor what we recommended on your last service. Did he ask you when you came in about what we recomended last time? Did you tell him that the services were already performed?

My guess is the shop you took it to just drained and filled the fluids not an actual flush.

[J-Wo]

ya you're absolutely right Joe, I think I only had a drain and fill, not a flush. Anyway Vincent called me back and I explained to him what had been done and he said the fluids were just discoloured meaning they were not fresh, they were not dangerously discoloured. I don't have anything in my service record because the auto shop I went to did things in a "cash only" sort of way... I guess it saves me money but my only records I have is what I put in my own Service Log (I use the mazda.ca My Owner's Lounge)

[Jeff-TheBiz]

Not a technical guy at all, but i know that the flush part is just as important as new fluid.

You may save $$ by just replacing the fluid, but it doesn't do what a flush does.

[yearoftherat]

Not a technical guy at all, but i know that the flush part is just as important as new fluid.

You may save $$ by just replacing the fluid, but it doesn't do what a flush does.

A flush ensures there is no left over contaminants left over from the previous fluids.

[J-Wo]

Hmmm interesting I didn't know that. I know Flipdaddy and TheBiz both work for MoT, but I'd like to know other users' opinions of other places to go to get service like this done but for less. $640 in service just sounds like too much to me, but I guess if it's only every x years then perhaps it's justifiable. Anyway would appreciate other people's thoughts on this matter, thanks to all that have replied so far.

[Flagrum_3]

Hmmm interesting I didn't know that. I know Flipdaddy and TheBiz both work for MoT, but I'd like to know other users' opinions of other places to go to get service like this done but for less. $640 in service just sounds like too much to me, but I guess if it's only every x years then perhaps it's justifiable. Anyway would appreciate other people's thoughts on this matter, thanks to all that have replied so far.

Here I'll give you my thoughts :chuckle

I'm a little disturbed by the list of comments made by Vincent because they are simply 'ALL FULL OF SHIT' and 'A TOTAL CASH GRAB'.

"Fluids discoloured?" It is common knowledge that both brake fluid and tranny fluid will discolour 'naturally' and immediately, both taking on a darker complexion.Tranny fluid and brake fluid never need changing except in the case of extreme conditions or circumstances.

"Warned if tranny not flushed could void 5yr warranty"?? Where did he get this from? I don't recall Mazda Corp ever saying this? In fact according to the owner's manual Schedule 2; Auto tranny fluid never needs changing!!....I'd like to hear how Mazda Canada would react to that comment....total BS.

"Clean throttle body based on carbon deposits and STICKY PEDAL:chuckle....now thats hilarious, we have fly-by-wire!!, not to mention the first time I ever heard that one....put some Redline Gas Treatment in, that's all you'd need at that mileage.

It never ceases to amaze me how gualible people are towards their cars and the servicing of such, considering the money they invest in them.For most people its the second most expensive thing you'll ever purchase and maintain! So why not educate yourselfs a little, instead of relying on Scrupulous Service Advisors. (Comments meant in a general sense).


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[Cardinal Fang]

In fact according to the owner's manual Schedule 2; Auto tranny fluid never needs changing!!....


Just to clarify something here. Schedule 2 does NOT state that "the tranny fluid never needs changing." Nothing is actually mentioned about changing the transmission fluid. I didn't want people thinking the actual schedule states you don't need to change the fluid.

[Flagrum_3]

Just to clarify something here. Schedule 2 does NOT state that "the tranny fluid never needs changing." Nothing is actually mentioned about changing the transmission fluid. I didn't want people thinking the actual schedule states you don't need to change the fluid.

Yeah thanks, I should have been clearer on that, but it just goes to reason, if it is not mentioned, than Mazda expects that the fluid will not need changing, atleast for the duration of the schedule or unless there is a problem.So my point stands...it will not void your warranty if the fluid is not changed.


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[FLIPDADY]

Not to mention any member names but a few have come into the shop with burnt tranny fluid...ahem pearly and myself.:chuckle

[Flagrum_3]

Not to mention any member names but a few have come into the shop with burnt tranny fluid...ahem pearly and myself.:chuckle

Well I'd classify that as a problem!...Something has caused the fluid to boil, such as excessively hard driving or towing, or a malfunction, but obviously a serious problem, (don't forget over filling the trans fluid, probably one of the top reasons for trans fluid/tranny failures). I would hope that the vehicles would have been checked properly for the cause!! :)


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