The Big 3 Bail-Out Strategy

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

Nuff said...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/3118093061_566d87e75f_o.jpg

[cereal83]

Pretty lame

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

Pretty lame

Well, you would think so. You just bought one of these fine vehicles didn't you?

And BTW, the concept that the Big3 are being bailed out of their own incompetence is pretty lame indeed...

[Thrizzl3]

Well, you would think so. You just bought one of these fine vehicles didn't you?

Ford does not = Mazda:bang

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

Ford does not = Mazda:bang
Phil, I know that...

He didn't buy a Mazda... I think he bought a P.O.S. Cavalier, woops, I mean Sunfire, no wait, that's not it, I mean a Cobalt. Might even be an SS. I'll leave the abbreviation meaning alone to the imagination too...

[Thrizzl3]

Phil, I know that...

He didn't buy a Mazda... I think he bought a P.O.S. Cavalier, woops, I mean Sunfire, no wait, that's not it, I mean a Cobalt. Might even be an SS. I'll leave the abbreviation meaning alone to the imagination too...

either way those GM cars are less reliable than the import ones. my grandmas 2006 impala which is barely driven just went into the shop for the steering pump which failed. when she bought the car in 2006 it had 31000 now its at 42000. its only driven 3 times a week and after 2 years the steering pump fails? i got my mazda with 97000 kms on it and it now has 107000 kms on it and i haven't had a single problem with it. Im happy i chose import:)

[openuser]

Think of the opposite. Say the U.S. lets the big 3 go bankrupt.
They are THE north american automotive industry..
Would it be economically feasible to just let them go down?
What about long term repercussion of such decision?
Should they really let one of the biggest industry that glues their country fall apart?

Don't get me wrong. I do not like modern American cars. I think they have become too comfortable in a sense that they have massive domestic market. I feel that they are not doing best they could to develop quality vehicles to match the import competition.
But as much as the american automotive industry has lagged behind the rest of world's counterpart, you can't forget that it is what brought the U.S. and Canada to where we are right now.

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

Openuser,

I hear what you are saying and don't disagree that the ripple effect would be bad in the short term. However, I don't think the big3 would all go under and be wiped off the map entirely in one fell swoop. I suspect there is a lot of bullshit being propogated in the media about their actual financial standing and capability to stay solvent both in the short and long-term. Are they hurting fiscally, absolutely. Do they deserve to be hurting, absolutely...

I believe to become viable long-term, the big 3 would need to consolidate and perhaps merge into a different entity and as a result, would need to make some very difficult decisions and refocus as to how they run and manage their business. This would include how the relationship with their unions is managed moving forward if they plan on being sustainable. The current business relationship is outdated and too much of a burden financially on the Big3.

Sure, losing one of the Big3 or having them enter into a merger agreement will cause pain and fluctuation in the economy, but ultimately, it will be necessary. I really feel it is their only hope to survive long-term anyway.

This happens in other industries all of the time, including the financial, telecom and pharmaceutical industries. The capex of these companies is pretty large when compared to the Big3 and with the exception of the financial companies, they also have huge contract manufacturing ties that have a ripple down effect. Should the Canadian government step in and rescue Nortel networks that employs a huge number of people in Canada and globally?

Call me an ardent capitalist, but I'm not in favour of rewarding companies for greed, incompetence and years of customer neglect. Let the hard times come, let the CEO's earn their actual salaries by having to make tough decisions and then let the chips fall where they may and let the markets and industry re-adjust accordingly. The market always does and always will. In the end, there will be new opportunities for the companies that are left and a change in the landscape and how business is conducted. Most of the time, this ends up being good for the end consumer.

[Propofol]

Call me an ardent capitalist, but I'm not in favour of rewarding companies for greed, incompetence and years of customer neglect. Let the hard times come, let the CEO's earn their actual salaries by having to make tough decisions and then let the chips fall where they may and let the markets and industry re-adjust accordingly. The market always does and always will. In the end, there will be new opportunities for the companies that are left and a change in the landscape and how business is conducted. Most of the time, this ends up being good for the end consumer.

This.

[She_Prime]

Tim, you make some very valid points. The merge is something I've never considered in the past but it actually makes sense. If any of the "three" are going down it's going to be GM. They've consistently had problems and plant closures and now they are in talks to disseminate the Saturn name. To lose Saturn would be quite unfortunate but decisions have to be made.

I honestly think within the new year GM will go under. My uncle suspects it too; a St. Catharines GM plant worker for the past 27 years. He's 56 (I believe) and they've already attempted to give him two buyout packages.

Plus my dad works at a steel factory which makes bar, wire and mesh. Many of their buyers are companies who manufacture parts for The Big 3. I know one company buys bars to build pieces of the frame for Chrysler in the States. I worked there three summers.

So yes this affects everybody but in the end things have to be done. I totally agree with everything you said Tim.

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

Angela,

I was happy just to be semi-coherent. http://img3.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/animated/anim_49.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-unhappy-smileys.php)

[openuser]

Openuser,

I hear what you are saying and don't disagree that the ripple effect would be bad in the short term. However, I don't think the big3 would all go under and be wiped off the map entirely in one fell swoop. I suspect there is a lot of bullshit being propogated in the media about their actual financial standing and capability to stay solvent both in the short and long-term. Are they hurting fiscally, absolutely. Do they deserve to be hurting, absolutely...

I believe to become viable long-term, the big 3 would need to consolidate and perhaps merge into a different entity and as a result, would need to make some very difficult decisions and refocus as to how they run and manage their business. This would include how the relationship with their unions is managed moving forward if they plan on being sustainable. The current business relationship is outdated and too much of a burden financially on the Big3.

Sure, losing one of the Big3 or having them enter into a merger agreement will cause pain and fluctuation in the economy, but ultimately, it will be necessary. I really feel it is their only hope to survive long-term anyway.

This happens in other industries all of the time, including the financial, telecom and pharmaceutical industries. The capex of these companies is pretty large when compared to the Big3 and with the exception of the financial companies, they also have huge contract manufacturing ties that have a ripple down effect. Should the Canadian government step in and rescue Nortel networks that employs a huge number of people in Canada and globally?

Call me an ardent capitalist, but I'm not in favour of rewarding companies for greed, incompetence and years of customer neglect. Let the hard times come, let the CEO's earn their actual salaries by having to make tough decisions and then let the chips fall where they may and let the markets and industry re-adjust accordingly. The market always does and always will. In the end, there will be new opportunities for the companies that are left and a change in the landscape and how business is conducted. Most of the time, this ends up being good for the end consumer.

I completely Agree with you.

I do feel that they brought this to themselves. If they hadn't slacked off in R&D while Japanese and German automobile manufacturers have been busting their butt off to build more efficient and reliable car, this would not have happened.. Like you said, I think all this had happened because of their business structure, which needs an urgent update.
Their attitude is still stuck in 40s or 50s and so is their business model, goal, or whatever you wish to call.
I do believe this event can act as catalyst for them to think back and analyze what brought them to current ordeal.
I hope they learn from it.

After all, if americans made as good vehicles as Japanese and German, why won't one want to purchase them?

In addition, I do feel that even if Big 3 bailout doesn't happen, and the Big 3 face bankruptcy, someone from other part of the world may pick them up and continue running the organization...

[jaimie08mazda3]

well due to this bullshit. i am currently out of a job. so therefore i really couldnt give a shit if they give them the money. either way im laid off indefinitly so screw it

[Thrizzl3]

well due to this bullshit. i am currently out of a job. so therefore i really couldnt give a shit if they give them the money. either way im laid off indefinitly so screw it

that sucks jaimie..now how are u gonna survive with out a job. most businesses aren't hiring to the declining economy

[queens49]

The whole bailout could be a huge waste of money. There was an article predicting the number of new car sales for 2009, and taking into account GMs market share. The number of cars sold isn't enough to cover GM's cost. The government should just let them fail now, instead of wasting tax payer money if this report is true.

[jaimie08mazda3]

that sucks jaimie..now how are u gonna survive with out a job. most businesses aren't hiring to the declining economy

im not sure. im kinda screwed. and i have no idea what ima do next. but thanks to basically ford for making shit cars, and selling mazda *dumb shits* about 2000 people are out of work. and nothing can be done. bahhhhhhh

[She_Prime]

Angela,

I was happy just to be semi-coherent. http://img3.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/animated/anim_49.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-unhappy-smileys.php)

Well Tim if you posted THAT semi-coherent I'd hate to see what you'd post sober. Probably the cure for cancer or some messed up stuff like that.

And I know I didn't quote it, but that really sucks Jaimie. All the best in your job hunt now darling!

[cereal83]

Well, you would think so. You just bought one of these fine vehicles didn't you?

And BTW, the concept that the Big3 are being bailed out of their own incompetence is pretty lame indeed...

Yup I just got one. The poster is lame.

[cereal83]

Phil, I know that...

He didn't buy a Mazda... I think he bought a P.O.S. Cavalier, woops, I mean Sunfire, no wait, that's not it, I mean a Cobalt. Might even be an SS. I'll leave the abbreviation meaning alone to the imagination too...

lmao there u go again. Ignorant as a tree. You can dis my car up and down but when it comes down to it, I don't care. Just seems like your jealous that I get better gas mileage then you can go around a track faster then you.


either way those GM cars are less reliable than the import ones. my grandmas 2006 impala which is barely driven just went into the shop for the steering pump which failed. when she bought the car in 2006 it had 31000 now its at 42000. its only driven 3 times a week and after 2 years the steering pump fails? i got my mazda with 97000 kms on it and it now has 107000 kms on it and i haven't had a single problem with it. Im happy i chose import:)

Biggest issue in a 06-08 Civic which is far superior then any Mazda, has a 3rd gear tranny issue.

Speed3, engine falls out
Mazda 3, engines blow, other stupid little problems

08-09 cobalt, ummm brakes wear fast and I think vibration in the front from the brakes

[Cardinal Fang]

Guys, it's Christmas so leave the personal attacks in the closet with your feelings of inferiority. Otherwise I'm getting the key to lock this thread from the cabinet over there..

*Points to the other side of the room*

If I have to walk that far I'm getting my gun.

[cereal83]

I agree but some people feel better when they attack other people for no reason other then jealously. I will be good!

Anyways, Doesn't it help these companies if they go bankrupt? They can restructure everything and hopefully fix whatever went wrong. It's not reliability thats killing the companies and the newer GM are far more reliable then they used to be. Sure stuff will still go but it happens to even Toyota's.

Once they fix how the company is run, I think they will go back to being the top 3.

[queens49]

I agree but some people feel better when they attack other people for no reason other then jealously. I will be good!

Anyways, Doesn't it help these companies if they go bankrupt? They can restructure everything and hopefully fix whatever went wrong. It's not reliability thats killing the companies and the newer GM are far more reliable then they used to be. Sure stuff will still go but it happens to even Toyota's.

Once they fix how the company is run, I think they will go back to being the top 3.

They need to get rid of the unions, or at least renegotiate their contracts. A friend was reading an article and it said that 60% of GMs payroll goes to paying RETIRED workers. There is something seriously wrong with that. The unions were great back in the day, but they are killing manufacturing.

[Nova 3 GT]

They need to get rid of the unions, or at least renegotiate their contracts. A friend was reading an article and it said that 60% of GMs payroll goes to paying RETIRED workers. There is something seriously wrong with that. The unions were great back in the day, but they are killing manufacturing.

I totally agree with you. The unions are what killing the Big3 not the companies itself.

[omalak]

I like the fact a bailout went through, although it's true they are in this position becasue they failed to react to market conditions and forecast the future..

The money needs to be used wisely

1. Dealerships need to be scalled back
2. Plans need to be put in place to ensure future viability of the big 3, bring in HR, bring in Consultants just come up with a workable strategy to restructure
3. You cannot get rid of the unions, but at the same time unions need to understand whats going on, take a 2 dollar pay cut, or forego that pay increase for next year, whatever.. it's true the biggest cost for these companies is the Union wages and benefits, you can throw pensions in there aswell.

And as much as i love the new Mustang's and Camero's is there a need to create V6/V8 muscle cars in todays economic world?

Is there a need for Mass manufaturing of any V6 vechicles? cut down on production!

k i'm done..

oh and for said they dont need bailout as of yet

[b3GS]

Another good article to read

http://www.ideasonideas.com/2008/12/how-to-save-detroit/#more-262



How to save Detroit
Thursday, December 18th, 2008

I’m going to risk alienating some of my readers today; nevertheless, I believe this to be an important discussion, worthy of a few ruffled feathers. As I write this, American auto-makers are scrambling to tap TARP funds that might keep them on life-support, and I believe their wish will be granted. I also think it’s shortsighted, disastrous and highly un-American.

The lore of America is largely formed on the notion that everyone has the potential to rise to the top, given a good idea, hard work, and a little luck. Just consider the innovation that came from America during the 20th century. Hollywood, the silicon chip, rock and roll, the assembly line, the franchise model… No matter what criticism “Brand America” may have had in recent years, the truth is that most nations still aspire to its values, affluence and cultural landscape.

But American civilization is peculiar. It seems that in some respects it makes greater gains as a “challenger”. As an underdog, or against insurmountable odds, it seems to continually surprise and overcome. In the “champion” role, however, it becomes lumbering and complacent. My case-in-point lies with the Big Three. Certainly, there have been breakthrough products, such as Chrysler’s mini-van in the 80s; however, as each of these companies has become larger, each has eked closer to the doom they currently face.

Brand erosion, inferior quality products, a disinterest in meeting consumer needs, lack of regard for the environment, bad business practices, disproportionately powerful unions… The fact is that these companies have become too big and too slow to adapt. As much as the notion may seem interesting, we simply can’t bring back the dinosaurs.

The bailout won’t work

The bailout (albeit perhaps necessary) is tantamount to burning the American flag. It’s another nail in the coffin for innovation in America and the belief in a free market system. Allowing it to occur will tell the world that capitalism doesn’t work. The message is loud and clear: we love the notion of freedom, free-will and the entrepreneurial-spirit, but… if it doesn’t work out, and you’re big enough, taxpayers will break your fall.

Not having a safety net is what makes entrepreneurs succeed. This is my personal reality. I need to sell work. If I don’t, I lose my business, my home, and my possessions. There is no employment insurance for owners of small companies such as myself. Additionally, there will never be a bailout should our business fail to meet market demands. As such, we manage our budgets carefully, and are highly motivated to avoid bankruptcy.

For the most part, this works. It’s a clean, clear and simple model of natural selection that all free market companies operate within. Some of us do well and some of us fail, but the playing field is for the most part level. The notion of a bailout for the American auto-industry, however, says that the rules don’t apply to them.

Worse yet, it will only stave-off the inevitable. If they couldn’t keep up in the free market before, why will that change with an injection of cash? Consumer confidence is shaken beyond repair and the machine is clearly broken. (Throwing more money at your coke-head brother isn’t going to sober him up.) Given our current course, a bailout will at very best buffer how the crash comes, but it will nevertheless come.

The “Ameri-car” is a harrowing notion

One idea that I continue to hear about is that of a merger of sorts, resulting in one large, consolidated American automobile company. Isn’t it strange how this feels more like something we’d have expected of the fallen Soviet Union than of America: A single state-enabled national auto-maker. (Doesn’t that whole idea make the hair on your neck stand up a little?)

In large part, the problem we’re facing relates to how big these companies are. If one of them fails it will drag many other related companies into insolvency. This clearly illustrates how dangerous the centralization of the American auto-industry is. We can’t keep tying all of our hopes into a few large organizations. It’s the antithesis of the American way, and doing so stands in the way of competition, innovation, and entrepreneurial spirit. Consolidation is a notion that can only make things worse.

Additionally, the American automotive industry is a brand disaster.

I know that a BMW is well engineered. I believe that a Volkswagen is fun to drive. I trust that buying a Toyota is a responsible decision given their quality and value.

We don’t know what an American car stands for any longer, because they all end-up being the progeny of the same companies. What does a Pontiac stand for? How about a Buick? (Do they even make Buicks any longer?) “General Motors” says it best. They’re general. They’re utilitarian. There’s nothing there to delight or surprise. It’s just one big, fat machine with no focus or meaning. And whether the aging champions of industry want to believe it or not, the public wants to buy products that we can believe in.

A solution

Tell me this: when GM CEO Rick Wagoner was flying on his private jet, to ask Congress for a bailout, do you think he for a moment thought “Gee, I wonder how we could make the Cobalt a better car?” Of course not. GM is too big, and its management is (figuratively) way too far off the ground.

To build a better product… to build something that people care about, means that you too have to believe in it. As companies become larger, it’s highly uncharacteristic for management to care as they would in an entrepreneurial operation. Examples to the contrary might include the likes of Patagonia’s Yvon Chouinard and Apple’s Steve Jobs. (And look at how their steadfast belief has fortified their companies.)

Consider this possibility: Our governments (this is, by the way, a concern in Canada as well) grant the bailouts that are being asked for in an effort to buffer all of us from an economic landslide. This is given with a caveat: Each brand housed by the automakers must be transitioned into an autonomous business unit. In this approach, Jeep leaves Chrysler and becomes “Jeep”. Hummer leaves GM and becomes “Hummer”… and so on and so forth. Each becomes an independent company that must then fight for its survival. Those that are unsuccessful die, and those that succeed live to see another day.

It’s simple and it gives all of these companies a strong impetus to become entrepreneurial, innovative and efficient. And want to talk about belief? When your survival is on the line, you believe. You care, because the brand matters to you. Its livelihood and yours are intrinsically tied to the same fate. I’m willing to bet that we’d see some powerful brands rise out of this, instead of the watered-down crap that we’ve become accustomed to from the American automobile industry.

Some will say this is logistically impossible. I argue that in the interests of our collective fates, we need a bold and aggressive return to an entrepreneurial landscape. We can no longer allow overpaid management teams to act without consequence, when they have no “skin in the game”.

Happy trails

As noted at the beginning of this post, I recognize that some of you may take issue with my position. I apologize for any offense. It goes without saying that I’m speaking out of my ass; I don’t know anything about running a car company. Then of course, it seems like few in Detroit do either. ;-)

Meanwhile, I wish you happy holidays! I probably won’t post much over the next couple of weeks, as we’ll be reorganizing the office, pushing out a couple of projects, and perhaps having a drink or two. That being said, I always appreciate you taking the time to read these long and meandering posts, and for sometimes responding and sharing your perspectives.

And if I didn’t already plug it enough, please visit undrln. It’s our new baby, and is a great way to get the scoop on what’s happening in advertising, marketing and design.

This entry was posted by Eric Karjaluoto on Thursday, December 18th, 2008 at 11:06 am and is filed under Brand, Business, Observations. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

Good article indeed. I couldn't agree more.

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

lmao there u go again. Ignorant as a tree. You can dis my car up and down but when it comes down to it, I don't care. Just seems like your jealous that I get better gas mileage then you can go around a track faster then you.



Biggest issue in a 06-08 Civic which is far superior then any Mazda, has a 3rd gear tranny issue.

Speed3, engine falls out
Mazda 3, engines blow, other stupid little problems

08-09 cobalt, ummm brakes wear fast and I think vibration in the front from the brakes

Jealousy? LOL. Okey dokey...
Please keep posting your little Mazda rants here, on what is a Mazda forum. It is actually highly entertaining. Please have a Happy Festivus also.

[Go_Habs_Go]

08-09 cobalt, ummm brakes wear fast and I think vibration in the front from the brakes

I think there are a lot more problems with the Cobalt than just fast wearing brakes...anyway, let's see how they hold up in the long term.

I don't think you can dispute the fact that generally speaking, US cars have a poor record of long term reliability when compared to Japanese cars. Obviously not every single US built car will have massive reliability problems but it just seems that over the long term they are way less reliable. Anyway...maybe it is all just perception but I certainly didn't like what I saw when I test drove the Pontiac G5 pursuit or the Cobalt...

[jaimie08mazda3]

cobalts had a bunch of problems with the supercharger because it was a 4 cyl and it was putting out way too hard for the car stock. i know because my buddy had one and had sooooooooooo many problems with it

[She_Prime]

I am just watching CH News (Hamilton) and they just said President Bush just approved the multi million dollar bail out for the big 3.

[Malcolm991]

I am just watching CH News (Hamilton) and they just said President Bush just approved the multi million dollar bail out for the big 3.

17 BILLION is more accurate. Bush must think money grows on trees! He has done nothing but bankrupt his own country and put the world in financial trouble!

[She_Prime]

17 BILLION is more accurate. Bush must think money grows on trees! He has done nothing but bankrupt his own country and put the world in financial trouble!

Bush wants Obama to fail and this is one of the key ways he assures it. He's going out with a different type of bang this time.

[cereal83]

Jealousy? LOL. Okey dokey...
Please keep posting your little Mazda rants here, on what is a Mazda forum. It is actually highly entertaining. Please have a Happy Festivus also.

My rants? LOL Show me where I had even one rant on this forum! Yes commander!



I think there are a lot more problems with the Cobalt than just fast wearing brakes...anyway, let's see how they hold up in the long term.

I don't think you can dispute the fact that generally speaking, US cars have a poor record of long term reliability when compared to Japanese cars. Obviously not every single US built car will have massive reliability problems but it just seems that over the long term they are way less reliable. Anyway...maybe it is all just perception but I certainly didn't like what I saw when I test drove the Pontiac G5 pursuit or the Cobalt...

Generally the smaller GM cars have issues, the midsizes ones etc are pretty good. Long term we shall see. I do agree that they seem less reliable. I am not saying they are perfect but they could be alot worse imo.


cobalts had a bunch of problems with the supercharger because it was a 4 cyl and it was putting out way too hard for the car stock. i know because my buddy had one and had sooooooooooo many problems with it

Thank god I don't have the SC one then.

[Thrizzl3]

my mom owns a G5 and she hasn't had any problems (yet) but i hope it doesn't happen soon cuz the car only has 6000kms on it so if anything goes wrong this early then how would it perform in the long run..

[jaimie08mazda3]

warranty :D

[STeeLy]

Apparently, you've probably all heard this... Harper is throwing $4 Billion for the Bail Out to Canadian divisions of the big 3

[x_o_k_x]

IMO GM cars are only great untill 60k then its garbage.. Also great cheap rental vehicles, and I know GM hates that,

One of the reasons Bush does this, is to mark his spot in the history. So that people would remember him by. Pretty much all presidents do something stupid, for people to remember them by.

[jaimie08mazda3]

yay. im still laid off. its not doing me any good. oh wait right im on indefinite layoff. perrrfect

[Flagrum_3]

Apparently, you've probably all heard this... Harper is throwing $4 Billion for the Bail Out to Canadian divisions of the big 3

It's just over $3 Billion and that's 20% of what the US is putting in, that figure is not random it's because we have 20% of the NA industry here in Canada....This is not a bail-out as in 'here just take the cash and run' It is $3+ billion in secured loans to help the big three get over thier cash flow problems! but it comes with stipulations that the companies must adhere too.....I didn't see any fuss when the Governments gave much, much more to the financial institutions and they were just as quilty of bad management!! and with no stipulations!!...2 tier way of thinking here? Come on folks, seriously get your heads out of your asses! What else were they going to do? If the big 3 were to go down in this economic climate it would mean disaster! ...and yes it would mean alot of people out of work and not just in the auto sector! all sectors would be affected eventually!!....and that means maybe alot of people even here on this board!!....think about that please.

This 'bail-out' will not work if the big 3 don't use the money wisely, so the economy is not out of the woods, there will undoubtably be downsizing and maybe even a merger or 2 before this is all over....and consessions from the unions etc; meaning job losses nonetheless!!....All we can do at this point is hope somehow it all works out and we all have our jobs next year.I have faith that Obama in the states already has a plan; he's picked some very intelligent people to help him and our government would have to go along, as they always do.

Also let's stop this badmouthing the NA quality as most here don't know what they are talking about!! Most NA built vehicles in the past 20 years have seen a tremendous increase in quality standards, some vehicles are even on par with the best from Japan.....that's from JD Powers and Assoc's and others.Personally before my 3 I had a Sunbird that's a Pontiac and in 13 years of ownership that 'Pontiac' vehicle gave me less problems then I've already experienced with my Mazda in just 3 years......just thought I'd add that little tid-bit :chuckle


_3

[Go_Habs_Go]

Also let's stop this badmouthing the NA quality as most here don't know what they are talking about!! Most NA built vehicles in the past 20 years have seen a tremendous increase in quality standards, some vehicles are even on par with the best from Japan.....that's from JD Powers and Assoc's and others.Personally before my 3 I had a Sunbird that's a Pontiac and in 13 years of ownership that 'Pontiac' vehicle gave me less problems then I've already experienced with my Mazda in just 3 years......just thought I'd add that little tid-bit :chuckle


_3


Just curious (and I'm honestly curious about this, I'm not trying to prod you or anything!!) but why did you buy a Mazda if you had such a good run with your Pontiac? Were you not tempted to get another Pontiac like the G5 or G6 or Cobalt or something along those lines?

[Flagrum_3]

Just curious (and I'm honestly curious about this, I'm not trying to prod you or anything!!) but why did you buy a Mazda if you had such a good run with your Pontiac? Were you not tempted to get another Pontiac like the G5 or G6 or Cobalt or something along those lines?

I just fell in love with the looks of the hatch that's all, but also when I finally test drove one, it got me hook, line and sinker! :chuckle ....I really liked the G6 though!!


_3

[Flagrum_3]

Apparently, you've probably all heard this... Harper is throwing $4 Billion for the Bail Out to Canadian divisions of the big 3

I apologize, your right; apparently Ontario has up'd the anti along with the Fed's and now it's topping $4 billion!


_3

[Go_Habs_Go]

I just fell in love with the looks of the hatch that's all, but also when I finally test drove one, it got me hook, line and sinker! :chuckle ....I really liked the G6 though!!


_3

Cool, I hear ya! I was pretty set on getting the Mazda3 even before I test drove it but once I finally did test drive it, I was really convinced that I was making the right choice! Previous to trying out the Mazda I had test driven a Corolla, a Civic and an Elantra. Gotta admit I never seriously looked at any US cars...I knew the Escort was not for me (been in my neighbor's) and I was not overly attracted to the G5 or Cobalt...

Maybe my next car will be US but I am still not convinced about quality/reliability!! Maybe it is just a bias...

[She_Prime]

We are going off topic here but like Ron Mazda caught me hook line and sinker as well!!!!

I didn't even need to test drive one to know it was the car for me.

It really was love at first sight.

Actually I never even test drove one before signing papers. Not until after I signed them did I take one off the lot. And it was the one to be mine.

[queens49]

I didn't see any fuss when the Governments gave much, much more to the financial institutions and they were just as quilty of bad management!! and with no stipulations!!...2 tier way of thinking here?

I think the case with financial institutions is different from the auto industry. Financial institutions are regulated by the government, so the government is partly to blame for the whole mess. Plus, the government would be on the hook for a lot of money if banks started to fail because of insurance payouts to customers (similar to CDIC). Almost everybody would be affected if financial institutions were to fail. Not everybody would be if the auto sector failed. Bailing out the automakers is opening the door for other industries to cry foul, and request a bailout. I'm glad that the governments are attaching conditions on the loans.

[Flagrum_3]

I think the case with financial institutions is different from the auto industry. Financial institutions are regulated by the government, so the government is partly to blame for the whole mess. Plus, the government would be on the hook for a lot of money if banks started to fail because of insurance payouts to customers (similar to CDIC). Almost everybody would be affected if financial institutions were to fail. Not everybody would be if the auto sector failed. Bailing out the automakers is opening the door for other industries to cry foul, and request a bailout. I'm glad that the governments are attaching conditions on the loans.

And Governments aren't partly to blame for the auto industry? LOL How about unfair trade policies for one! One economist recently went as far as stating "even with the bail-out, if the US and Canadian Governments do nothing to even out the trade bias that exists with foreign trade partners, then it will be all for not!"
When the Governments decided to bail out the Banks is when the flood doors were opened!! and can you blame any other industries for crying foul? ....I don't!

The financial institutions and Insurance companies, alot of whom are one in the same; it's true that they are very close to the Governments and also regulated, but all the more reason to trust them less!...I'm stressing no stipulations put on them!!.....Also to think that the fall of financial institutions would have a more devastating effect on the economy then the auto industry may be true for some areas of our country but not so much in Ontario.Ontario would basically be comatose if the industry failed, literally effecting all aspects of our economy...that is the concensus taken by most economists and why the 'Bailed-out'.


_3

[queens49]

How about unfair trade policies for one!

What unfair trade policies are you talking about? I haven't heard about that before, and would like to know about it. The only thing I recall is Buzz Hargrove complaining that foreign countries were exporting a lot of cars into Canada, but importing very few cars made in Ontario.

[Cardinal Fang]

As if it couldn't get any worse. GM is looking for an additional $7B dollars and their own internal financial audit comes up this this:

"NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors Corp. said in a government filing Thursday that its accounting firm has found there is "substantial doubt" about the automaker's ability to survive.The embattled automaker made the disclosure in a 480-page filing with the Securities & Exchange Commission."

[omalak]

As if it couldn't get any worse. GM is looking for an additional $7B dollars and their own internal financial audit comes up this this:

"NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors Corp. said in a government filing Thursday that its accounting firm has found there is "substantial doubt" about the automaker's ability to survive.The embattled automaker made the disclosure in a 480-page filing with the Securities & Exchange Commission."

Just read that as well.. it's gettin pretty scary out there..

Chrysler is now laying off 1,200 workers in windsor as well i believe.
A US Steel company has closed a mill in Hamilton
Ontario is forecasting ATLEAST 18 billion dollars in deficit

And how much lower can you take the prime interest rate :whoa

I just hope everyone gets through this ok