Your opinion on cyclists

[Fuman]

I was reading this http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/689827
and was rather disappointed. Did I misunderstand the article or are they saying
the cyclists are screaming murderer at on-coming traffic?

If I did not understand this incorrectly then this particular group of cyclists is retarded.
1) We do not know the circumstances in which that cyclists died the other night.
Report today are the cyclist had alcohol and his ex-gf called the police to escort him off her property.
2) Calling all drivers that they see murderers is slanderous, and down right offensive
3) Blocking Bloor during rush hour will only increase the conflict between cyclists and drivers. SMRT...

[Fobio]

I feel bad that someone died...

But who here can say they'd have acted differently than the driver? You're out with your wife on your 12th anniversary...you're not bloody likely looking to be a bigger man by running a drunk cyclist over...come on!?

I understand that cyclists and drivers have always been on opposing sides...but this is not a case of road rage or street justice...it is simply a matter of misfortune for all involved...highlighted by the fact that a lowly drunk cyclist was killed by a successful politician/public figure...

Would a bunch of yuppy cyclists drop their $2000+ bicycles on Bloor if the tables were turned (ie. a poor drunk going to his 2nd job, running over a city councillor after a townhall meeting)?

[mazdabetty]

Even if the cyclist wasn't drunk, he still had an equal part in what happened... hanging on to the car was equally as bad as the driver that kept going, but it sucks that only he has to live with it for the rest of his life now. He becomes the bad guy and the cyclist is now an angel and gets his own memorial-protest. It's so backwards.

[mzkaye729]

Ask p-o-g-i what my personal view is on cyclists :chuckle

As far as this case goes, I think I'll reserve judgment until the facts have all been laid out. Hell, I'd have been beyond pissed off if someone had clung onto my car soooo with that said, before I get in trouble, I'll bite my tongue now.

[whiteomega]

Personally, I think cyclists have the right to a safe commute on the public streets, but I also think that cyclists need to be smart about how they go about riding on the streets.

It's one thing to stage a rally in support of safety awareness, both among drivers and cyclists, it's quite another to do so and scream "MURDER!"

Regardless of who was at fault the other night, bad decisions were made by BOTH parties. One person was (allegedly) drunk, the other was just plain stupid, if witness reports are to be believed. We don't know enough information about how the incident began, and so laying blame is difficult.

Frankly, the whole situation is both tragic and insane, but we just don't have all the facts, and I doubt we ever will.

[Cardinal Fang]

I think this has been a long time coming and it boiled over into this type of situation. I'm referring to the tensions between cyclists and drivers.

They share the road legally but don't respect each other. The city's are becoming more bicycle friendly and have provided bike lanes at the expense of the car. Drivers in the core become more frustrated trying to compete for the same piece of real estate. They do stupid things not realizing the the slightest nudge you give a bike is dangerous. In retaliation some cyclists have done absolutely asinine things. Many, not all, drive as if the rules of the road does not apply to them. And because it's totally unregulated (ie. you not licensed to drive a bike) you'd be hard pressed to see police cracking down on them the same way they crack down on cars.

Point is there needs to be far more respect given to cyclists and in turn cyclists need to respect the cars and pedestrians. There are more than enough asshat's on both sides to blame to ruin it for the rest of the people.

How's that for sitting on the fence!

[Xerox]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIIhF7Twv8I

[jonjon72]

I've been following this story closely and know how close knit bike couriers are. Plus the fact they seem to think that anyone is a car or walks is stupid and that they are always right.

There seems to be alot of information coming out about the bike rider (Andrew). ie. temper, warrants for his arrest, etc.

We'll have to see what comes of this, but the driver of the car, Bryant is claiming innocence. Have to wait and see since he did this on one of the busiest streets in Toronto and there are dozens of witness's to the events.

[Cardinal Fang]

*Awards Xerox 2 points*




We'll have to see what comes of this, but the driver of the car, Bryant is claiming innocence. Have to wait and see since he did this on one of the busiest streets in Toronto and there are dozens of witness's to the events.

I still don't get how he drove into on coming traffic to get this guy off his car.

[Flagrum_3]

So let me get this straight they have an altercation, the 'cyclist' grabs onto the car as it's leaving and the driver gets charged?? LOL ....sounds a little off to me.

Wonder why there was no protest or charges a couple of weeks back when a cyclist 'riding illegally' on the sidewalk hit and killed a woman walking legally on the same.

It's a strange world.



_3

[Fuman]

I'm not sure about couriers, but cyclists I saw in my residential area are nice and typically do not impede traffic. At the worse, they run stop signs, but typically follow rules.

I really hope they don't block off bloor, its like feeding gas to a flame.

So let me get this straight they have an altercation, the 'cyclist' grabs onto the car as it's leaving and the driver gets charged?? LOL ....sounds a little off to me.

Wonder why there was no protest or charges a couple of weeks back when a cyclist 'riding illegally' on the sidewalk hit and killed a woman walking legally on the same.

It's a strange world.



_3
wtf i didn't see this, any link to the article or any more details?

[JSI]

In general cyclists in the city are retarded. I used to love biking, I still do off road. But I learned a long time ago that on big city streets being on a bike is not worth the risk. Unless we have structure like in say Amsterdam you have to be an idiot to bike in downtown.

Roads are in place for cars/trucks to use, why does a cyclist that weighs in at 100-200lbs and is capable of traveling at what around 30km/h on average think they have a right to be in the same vicinity as vehicles weighing several thousand pounds and travelling at 60km/h+ on average.

Just makes no sense.

Jeremy

[ZeroChalk]

I've been following this story as well.. I've seen the bike messenger hanging around with the other couriers outside my workplace. There are reports now that the courier could have grabbed on to the driver (perhaps a head lock) but everything is still speculation and hearsay by the media.

What I don't understand is why didn't they stop the car and just argue it out. They are on one of the busiest streets near Yorkville, it's not a dangerous area. I think the more you try to ignore the couriers and dismiss them the angrier they get. I've seen them smash mirrors of vehicles with their bicycle locks...

[Fuman]

I've seen them smash mirrors of vehicles with their bicycle locks...side view mirrors of random vehicles or a specific vehicle?

[Fobio]

I hope calmer heads prevail...

Look, the guy died because they got into an altercation...he didn't die because he's a biker or courier...Bryant didn't run him over because he drove a car or because he was successful...

In another universe, this might've been a bar fight gone wrong...the fact that a bike and a car were involved should not detract from the fact that the altercation were bewteen two PEOPLE...not a bike and a car...

[ZeroChalk]

well the ones that cut them off ... these bikers will chase you down. All in all, the couriers are pretty nonchalant... just doing their thing.

[Garu]

If you're the driver, you hate the pedestrian.
If you're the pedestrian, you hate the driver.
However you hate the cyclist, whether you are the driver or the pedestrian.

So.. it's hard to work with people's mentality nowadays.

[Fobio]

well the ones that cut them off ... these bikers will chase you down.

I work around a lot of bike couriers...it's a stigma that they have to deal with that ppl think they're crazy or what not...well, they're doing their job, and most couriers are smart enough to deal with traffic whether they're daredevils or not...

One day, I saw a regular guy...not a courier...who had an arguement with a driver...and while they're doing the back and forth, the biker kept ramming his front wheel into the side of the car...I was like WTF?! If the car tapped him...maybe, but it was a guy on a bike ramming his wheel/tire into the SUV of this lady...

Couriers are not the ones that give bikers a bad name...it's those infrequent bikers who think the moment they get on a bike, the laws of the road and physics somehow change...riding on sidewalks ringing that gawd dang bell for ppl to get out of their way.

[ElegantGremlin]

So let me get this straight they have an altercation, the 'cyclist' grabs onto the car as it's leaving and the driver gets charged?? LOL ....sounds a little off to me.

Criminal negligence is a fun little thing. Because he killed the guy, by accident, but there were things he could've done to prevent it, he was negligent.

[ZeroChalk]

It's also the risk associated with biking that are causing the tempers to flare. The SUV driver talking on the phone that didn't see the cyclist.. "oops..." but to the cyclist.. it's like "wholly FHJ$ you almost killed me!"

[Fuman]

I wonder if the cyclist also grabbed the steering wheel


I work around a lot of bike couriers...it's a stigma that they have to deal with that ppl think they're crazy or what not...well, they're doing their job, and most couriers are smart enough to deal with traffic whether they're daredevils or not...

One day, I saw a regular guy...not a courier...who had an arguement with a driver...and while they're doing the back and forth, the biker kept ramming his front wheel into the side of the car...I was like WTF?! If the car tapped him...maybe, but it was a guy on a bike ramming his wheel/tire into the SUV of this lady...

Couriers are not the ones that give bikers a bad name...it's those infrequent bikers who think the moment they get on a bike, the laws of the road and physics somehow change...riding on sidewalks ringing that gawd dang bell for ppl to get out of their way.
sort of like how street racers ruin it for the entire car enthusiast community?

[Flagrum_3]

Criminal negligence is a fun little thing. Because he killed the guy, by accident, but there were things he could've done to prevent it, he was negligent.

Yeah and the cyclist could have done something to prevent it also!!...Like not grab hold of the car lol.So who's really negligent? ...I think unless anyone was there to see what actually occurred, blame cannot be set....But my point was more in the line of the protests, as they "the cyclists" all of a sudden pop out of the woodwork when one of their own is hurt but hide and cowl when it's the other way around.


_3

[Unoriginalusername]

as a long time biker and inline skater I can say more than half of our driving population are complete pricks. regardless of the cyclist being a dick or not, cars are bigger and dangerous and the responsibility for safety ultimately calls for the driver to man up and be the bigger person right or wrong and try to avoid people getting killed.

[ElegantGremlin]

Yeah and the cyclist could have done something to prevent it also!!...Like not grab hold of the car lol.So who's really negligent? ...I think unless anyone was there to see what actually occurred, blame cannot be set....But my point was more in the line of the protests, as they "the cyclists" all of a sudden pop out of the woodwork when one of their own is hurt but hide and cowl when it's the other way around.


_3

Well you can't charge a dead person with anything, can you?

And I'm sure if the car had crashed and the driver had died, the biker would've been charged with the same thing.

[mazdabetty]

And I'm sure if the car had crashed and the driver had died, the biker would've been charged with the same thing.

Actually I wondered the same thing... would he have been??

[Flagrum_3]

Well you can't charge a dead person with anything, can you?

And I'm sure if the car had crashed and the driver had died, the biker would've been charged with the same thing.

I highly doubt it!!...Case in point the "accident" which occurred just recently, and I also mentioned above, the cyclist was definately in the wrong and negligent, the woman died of her injuries and no charges were laid.:loco


_3

[Fobio]

to be honest, eventho I don't like bikers when I'm driving, I always give them more room than they deserve...I don't want some fawker having a bad day to run his fawking peddles across the side of my car...

but back to flagrum's example, and along the lines of UOU's arguement: if a car (being big and powerful) hits a bike, well, I agree that the car being bigger, more powerful and dangerous, should be operated more safely to avoid hitting a cyclist...

just like on a side-walk...if a bike runs over a person, even if the person jumped in front of the bike, it's the bike's fault...not only that, but a bike, like a car is supposed to travel on the actual road way, not the sidewalk...so in that case, I'd say the cyclist is even more at fault...it's exactly as if a car ran off the road and plowed onto the sidewalk, killing someone...

[Chester_Lampwick]

There's really no room for bikes. Anywhere. They are much too small and slow to share the road with cars, SUVs, buses, delivery trucks. They are much too fast to be on the sidewalk with elderly people, or those wearing headphones, texting, or toddlers. Bike couriers, obviously have carved out a niche by bending the rules to get around town. Obviously a bike isn't faster than a car, but blowing past cars sitting at red lights rather than falling in place then through the light itself. Then you can go the other way down one-way streets by hopping on the sidewalk then parking anywhere or carrying your bike into a building. It's all about cheating...

This guy didn't die in the line of duty either. Something else that's always bothered me. Like the big cop funeral for the officer that dies while on vacation or whatever, What's up with that?

[froggy]

First thing there is absolutely no accountability for cyclists:
1) no licensing of either the vehicle or the operator
2) no insurance for the above
3) no interest (seemingly) of enforcing the rules by law enforcement

if the city was serious they would do like was mentioned before how they do it in amsterdam and other European countries. you have sidewalk then bike lane/path then another little sidewalk for the people who parked their cars to get off on. This way everyone is in a designated area. But with our Bureaucratic nightmare of a city council with it's impotent hippy/commie mayor, that will never happen.

Now onto licensing and insurance issues, bikers on a whole should actually want this. could you imagine as a car driver how the roads would be if anyone of any age could drive any car without having to be qualified or educated or insured, or even identified?!!! Well this is exactly how it is on the streets with bikes. you have people with these little collapsible bikes, people with tricycle bikes that are wider that a smart car, and you even have "people" i use the term loosely, who actually ride around with their children in glorified wagons behind them in actual traffic! (every time i see this i feel like calling 911 or childrens aid on that parent)

From the drivers point of view the biggest thing is identification and accountability of cyclists. if there is a car vs car incident, both vehicles and drivers have documents, insurance and so on and are accountable for their actions, you have an incident you exchange information, call the police etc as the situation merits. if the driver fails to remain you still have a car description and hopefully a license plate # for the police to track this guy down. With a car vs bike incident if a bike hits and breaks your sideview mirror or scratches up your car with his pedals or something, breaks a taillight or something what recourse do you have for justice? What fear of consequence does the cyclist have to remain at the scene? none really, unless of course you want to hunt this guy/gal down and do a citizens arrest call the cops and probably end up getting charged with assault in the process! Now before I get jumped on let me say that I have bicycled for a long time on road, mtn biking, bmx, freestyle the works, and i still own a rather nice custom (self built) bike. now thank you for letting me have my little rant! phew I feel better now that this is off my chest.

[DingBat]

as a long time biker and inline skater I can say more than half of our driving population are complete pricks. regardless of the cyclist being a dick or not, cars are bigger and dangerous and the responsibility for safety ultimately calls for the driver to man up and be the bigger person right or wrong and try to avoid people getting killed.

No offense, but if I were the one riding a 20lb piece of aluminum, I think I'd err on the side of doing whatever I could to avoid the 2000lb car. If the cyclist ****s up, he dies. If I'm the driver and I **** up, he still dies.

In poker terms, I'd say cyclists were pot committed whenever they take to the road. I'm not sure that relying on drivers is the smartest choice.

[Unoriginalusername]

No offense, but if I were the one riding a 20lb piece of aluminum, I think I'd err on the side of doing whatever I could to avoid the 2000lb car. If the cyclist ****s up, he dies. If I'm the driver and I **** up, he still dies.

In poker terms, I'd say cyclists were pot committed whenever they take to the road. I'm not sure that relying on drivers is the smartest choice.

sounds like you don't have much experience on a bike with how big of an :AH some people can be behind the wheel

[DingBat]

sounds like you don't have much experience on a bike with how big of an :AH some people can be behind the wheel

What does that matter? The only thing that DOES matter is: "Car squash you like bug". You can be as indignant as you like about the asshat drivers on your way to the morgue.

It's sort of like how our society can make a lot of noise about both sexes being responsible for birth control. The only problem is, the guy doesn't have to carry the oopsy around for 9 months if he screws up. Cyclists and drivers don't have the same skin in the game, so expecting drivers to accept responsibility for everyone's safety seems like a good way to get killed.

[Flagrum_3]

After reading the above several posts and in particular froggy's, I get the feeling that this is just one of those arguments that will never be settled.But has raised an important issue which is; That our city is definately not designed for safe bicycling;...very few bike lanes, improperly designed sewer grates, etc; etc; and I don't see anything changing anytime soon, hell they can't even afford to keep the infrastructure from crumbling let alone afford the huge cost to make the changes requirred for bike safety!!.....Personally I don't, and will never ride a bike on city streets, as it is just far too dangerous! I'll stick to bike-paths thank-you....Just wish others felt the same, then maybe we'd have less fatalities.


_3

[mazda lover]

Why are the cyclist allowed to block traffic? if your car broke down and blocked traffic and you had no intention to have it removed I am sure the police would call a tow truck to remove you. Their protest makes no sense (Tamils, Tigers) but shows how closed minded they are, its a case of ME ME poor ME. There is more to all of this issue then we know at the moment. This issue was between 2 people one being a cyclist, his occupation, has nothing to do with what happened. Maybe the cyclist was at fault to begin with. Once he is off the bike its between the car driver and him. Haven't been following what is going on so I may not have my facts right.

[Iceman_F1]

as a long time biker and inline skater I can say more than half of our driving population are complete pricks. regardless of the cyclist being a dick or not, cars are bigger and dangerous and the responsibility for safety ultimately calls for the driver to man up and be the bigger person right or wrong and try to avoid people getting killed.

One would also assume that trucks, being bigger and more dangerous than cars, would then have to be even more cautious but that is often not the case. Getting really close to other cars, going into another lane just to go EVER SO SLIGHTLY faster than the OTHER truck it wants to pass causing people behind them to slow to a crawl.

From my experience, both on a bike and in a car seeing bikers, I'm surprised at the lack of road safety on BOTH sides. When I rode a bike (back in High School...long time ago sure) I would always follow the rules of the road. Come to a stop sign/light? Stop until it is safe to go (stop sign) or the light changes. Now? I see pairs of bikers in the middle of the road, no helmets without caring for cars. Bikers on the road when there's a clear bike lane AND sidewalk for them OFF the road where it's safe, not wearing helmets, weaving in and out of cars, etc.

I agree, this argument will always go both ways and pretty much no resolution. But I DO agree there should be more "rules" for bikers. A license system would be nice where if a cop sees a biker doing something illegal like a driver, they can get ticketed and such. Before you learn to drive, take some kind of course/test to allow you to ride a bike outside of a set area to make sure you know the rules of the road as it applies to you. Not everyone knows and you can't expect people to teach what they don't know.

Yes, there should be more respect on the road...no matter what you drive/ride/whatever. But there will always be people in any case thinking that they own the road and will do whatever they want anyways.

[whiteomega]

What does that matter? The only thing that DOES matter is: "Car squash you like bug". You can be as indignant as you like about the asshat drivers on your way to the morgue.

It's sort of like how our society can make a lot of noise about both sexes being responsible for birth control. The only problem is, the guy doesn't have to carry the oopsy around for 9 months if he screws up. Cyclists and drivers don't have the same skin in the game, so expecting drivers to accept responsibility for everyone's safety seems like a good way to get killed.

Sounds to me like you're implying drivers are not responsible for anyone's safety on the road but their own.

If a pedestrian grabbed onto your car for whatever reason, and you tried to get him off by driving into a post box or a telephone pole, or oncoming traffic, and that pedestrian later died, who is at fault? Is it the pedestrians' fault for grabbing your car in the first place, or yours for trying to dislodge him in a dangerous (and in this case, lethal) ways? The pedestrian made a bad choice grabbing onto your car; would you make a similarly bad choice and risk getting that person killed?

A car or a bike can be repaired or replaced. A persons' life cannot.

Edit: I also agree that cyclists need to be punished for breaking the rules of the road, just like anyone else, and they are responsible for their safety, and that of everyone else on the road, just like anyone else who operates any kind of motor vehicle. The fact is though, that cars and trucks are bigger, heavier, faster and generally more dangerous than a bike, and so whoever drives them needs to be aware of cyclists on the road, and make sure they operate their vehicles safely around them.

[Fuman]

If a pedestrian grabbed onto your car for whatever reason, and you tried to get him off by driving into a post box or a telephone pole, or oncoming traffic, and that pedestrian later died, who is at fault? Is it the pedestrians' fault for grabbing your car in the first place, or yours for trying to dislodge him in a dangerous (and in this case, lethal) ways? The pedestrian made a bad choice grabbing onto your car; would you make a similarly bad choice and risk getting that person killed?

A car or a bike can be repaired or replaced. A persons' life cannot.

Assuming he is holding on to something inside the car, I would try and get them off. In that state of mind, I'd likely be feeling that my life is endangered.

If my windows were shut and he can't harm me, I'd call the cops.

[mzkaye729]

One would also assume that trucks, being bigger and more dangerous than cars, would then have to be even more cautious but that is often not the case.

Yeah tell me about it... I almost got sandwiched by two trucks last night on the highway on my way home... I was cursing and highbeaming and honking the horn -- I was literally prepared to die because I don't know if any of those truck drivers knew that they were both trying to take the same lane and I was stuck in between them (one was on the left-most lane, I was in the middle, the other was in the right-most lane). Idiots :bang

[Iceman_F1]

Sounds to me like you're implying drivers are not responsible for anyone's safety on the road but their own.

If a pedestrian grabbed onto your car for whatever reason, and you tried to get him off by driving into a post box or a telephone pole, or oncoming traffic, and that pedestrian later died, who is at fault? Is it the pedestrians' fault for grabbing your car in the first place, or yours for trying to dislodge him in a dangerous (and in this case, lethal) ways? The pedestrian made a bad choice grabbing onto your car; would you make a similarly bad choice and risk getting that person killed?

A car or a bike can be repaired or replaced. A persons' life cannot.

+1. However, saying that now is one thing. Actually making the right choice in a situation like that might be another all together. Sometimes we do things we regret later because the emotions at the time.

That being said, it's somewhat sad that the penalties regarding peoples bad choices are a bit lopsided when it comes to this. The person in the car has more "responsibilities" and the possibility for bigger charges than the person on a bike or just on the street. Yes, they are bigger and more dangerous, but still, a really bad choice on the other persons part can still lead to more going wrong for the person in the car than in the bike.

Example, night time and car driving down a street that has no stop signs for it and following speed limit and doing nothing illegal (full lights on, all in working order, everything). Biker coming up to a stop sign for him but decides for whatever reason to keep going thinking he can beat the car or is otherwise impaired with alcohol/drugs/whatever that it just doesn't register that there is a car. Car tries to stop but can't and hits bike. Worst case, biker dies and person driving car is likely charged. Best case, biker lives but is hurt, again, person driving car is likely charged.

So, by driving the car in the proper manner in all regards, trying to stop in time for a biker but can't, is likely charged or otherwise "in trouble" for hitting someone who was at fault?

Such is how our civilization is now I guess. Sometimes, peoples stupidity and lack of common sense wins out and ends up hurting regular people who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time despite doing nothing wrong themselves.

Still sad this happened though. Despite who's ultimately at fault.

[Iceman_F1]

Yeah tell me about it... I almost got sandwiched by two trucks last night on the highway on my way home... I was cursing and highbeaming and honking the horn -- I was literally prepared to die because I don't know if any of those truck drivers knew that they were both trying to take the same lane and I was stuck in between them (one was on the left-most lane, I was in the middle, the other was in the right-most lane). Idiots :bang

Yeah, there's a couple places on my way home that I almost get caught by stupid people (mostly trucks). One such is on Bronte Rd. in Oakville. If you are going south on Bronte, it's 2 lanes from the 407 all the way to Upper Middle. Once you pass Upper Middle, you have 300m to merge from the right lane into the left to go to a single lane. I ALWAYS see people either move out of the line, gun it down there to cut in front of people. Or truckers waiting until the LAST MIN. to move over and then think because they are a truck, they can just move over without slowing or watching for people...no signal either :bang

Not to mention the sometimes bike riders in that area not wearing helmets and weaving in and out of cars coming close to hitting the site mirrors just because they can't stop at a red light like everyone else.

If only everyone followed the rules of the road properly within reason...

[whiteomega]

Assuming he is holding on to something inside the car, I would try and get them off. In that state of mind, I'd likely be feeling that my life is endangered.

If my windows were shut and he can't harm me, I'd call the cops.

And if you get that person killed trying to get him off your car?

[Fuman]

And if you get that person killed trying to get him off your car?
If I am fearing for my life, then better him then me...

[Fobio]

The protesting cyclists claimed that this protest was to highlight cyclist safety...

From my reading of the case, this is not a case of a drunk driver hitting a cyclist...it's an altercation between 2 men...one of them who happens to be a cyclist, but not riding at the time. The other being the driver of a car. I don't see how this has anything to do with cycling safety and rights in the city.

Of course, both drivers and cyclists agree that the roads are in bad condition. Riding bike isn't really in the Toronto culture as it's really only doable 8 months out of the yr...unlike Amsterdam where cycling is cultural and city planning revolved around it. It is unfair to say that Toronto does not support cycling becuase until about 15 yrs ago, the city was still relatively sparsely populated that cycling (and the green movement) wasn't the "responsible thing to do" like it is today.

Regardless of whether that dude was a cyclist or not, if you jumped into my convertible, I can't help but think that I might do the same thing.

[Chester_Lampwick]

Look driving is always about making snap judgments. Experience will always dictate how you're going to handle something. For example, if you're driving in the curbside lane following a bus, you'll likely expect that bus to stop at each corner so you'll move to the left lane. If you're driving in the curbside lane, and see a parked/stopped car a block away you'll likely move over too. How many people do you see that can not spot either, and get stuck behind the bus or parked car?

Now when I see a cyclist, many things go through my mind. If he or she is riding an appropriately sized bike, with helmet, reflectors and the like, I am reassured that he/she will act in a predictable manner. If it's a kid, or even an adult riding a BMX down the street, I expect them to jump out right in front of my car. If it's a dude riding a bike with no helmet, and it's January, I expect this is a dude who's had a few DUIs and had his licence taken away and is probably destitute to the point of not being able to afford a cab or bus. Probably, I'm just prejudiced...

Point is, I don't paint them all with the same brush, but I do make judgments. You have to. Sometimes you're wrong, but mostly you get better with experience. Some other people, will always be oblivious, whether they be cyclist or driver.

[Chester_Lampwick]

Their protest makes no sense (Tamils, Tigers) but shows how closed minded they are, its a case of ME ME poor ME.

How did the "Medical Examiner" get dragged into this?

[JSI]

Now when I see a cyclist, many things go through my mind. If he or she is riding an appropriately sized bike, with helmet, reflectors and the like, I am reassured that he/she will act in a predictable manner. If it's a kid, or even an adult riding a BMX down the street, I expect them to jump out right in front of my car. If it's a dude riding a bike with no helmet, and it's January, I expect this is a dude who's had a few DUIs and had his licence taken away and is probably destitute to the point of not being able to afford a cab or bus. Probably, I'm just prejudiced...

Point is, I don't paint them all with the same brush, but I do make judgments. You have to. Sometimes you're wrong, but mostly you get better with experience. Some other people, will always be oblivious, whether they be cyclist or driver.


Most people do this, there was an article in Toronto Life a while ago comparing how drivers react to different cyclist. Pretty much said the same thing you do. If they see a kid with no helmet on a BMX they give lots of room, when the see a cyclist with all the gear on they give much less room.

Jeremy

[froggy]

Ok I can see that this debate is getting fairly heated, and it's pretty obvious to see what side of the debate i'm on. If you want to talk about who's responsible to be more careful about who, (trucks, vans, cars, motorcycles, pedestrians) then maybe we should look at the rules of the "road" for ships. They basically say that the smaller more maneuverable and "fragile" craft has the onus on them to be more proactive in avoiding a collision. this is because the smaller vessel 1) can react, stop, turn. much faster than the larger vehicle ie car and bike and 2) the consequences for the smaller vehicle are much more serious ie car and bike again. Again this is not to say that the larger vehicle has more rights than the smaller vehicle, it's just by necessity ( to survive) the smaller vessel has to get his/her head out of the clouds and actually pay attention to what's going on. just like with a train if you try to beat a train across a crossing and the train takes 2 miles to come to a full stop... well we all know what happens next. you play with fire you can get burned. For the people who worry about "what if they die" while they are doing something absurdly stupid, example riding a bike drunk, while talking on a cell phone riding with one hand with no helmet and jumping on and off the side walk and weaving in and out of traffic ( yes i have seen these people much too much) If you care that little about your life and safety so be it!

[JSI]

I like froggy's point about boating rules, they should do that.:pop

[Iceman_F1]

Ok I can see that this debate is getting fairly heated, and it's pretty obvious to see what side of the debate i'm on. If you want to talk about who's responsible to be more careful about who, (trucks, vans, cars, motorcycles, pedestrians) then maybe we should look at the rules of the "road" for ships. They basically say that the smaller more maneuverable and "fragile" craft has the onus on them to be more proactive in avoiding a collision. this is because the smaller vessel 1) can react, stop, turn. much faster than the larger vehicle ie car and bike and 2) the consequences for the smaller vehicle are much more serious ie car and bike again. Again this is not to say that the larger vehicle has more rights than the smaller vehicle, it's just by necessity ( to survive) the smaller vessel has to get his/her head out of the clouds and actually pay attention to what's going on. just like with a train if you try to beat a train across a crossing and the train takes 2 miles to come to a full stop... well we all know what happens next. you play with fire you can get burned. For the people who worry about "what if they die" while they are doing something absurdly stupid, example riding a bike drunk, while talking on a cell phone riding with one hand with no helmet and jumping on and off the side walk and weaving in and out of traffic ( yes i have seen these people much too much) If you care that little about your life and safety so be it!

Yup. Good points. Not that the bigger vehicles should push the smaller ones around, just that the smaller vehicles should be more aware of things since it would be easier for them to avoid an incident.

I think my biggest complaint (and this seems to show more often than not) is the fact the person in the car is usually blamed without knowing the exact facts. In the case about the news, it might be both their faults in which case sure, the car driver should be punished. But to paint such a good picture just because the other person was on a bike...even if that person was at fault, that's not right.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

once the cyclist dropped his bike in front of the car and then jumped onto the car as the driver proceeded to try to get away and avoid a confrontation, he became the aggressor in the situation (and no longer a cyclist).

the driver had his wife in the car and was probably fearful for her life and his. in that situation, with someone hanging off your car, you don't know what state of mind they are in and your instinct is to protect yourself and your family. it's the same as if someone broke into your house and tried to assault you in the process. if the attacker dies in the scuffle, you claim self-defense and/or you weren't in a rational state of mind.

it would be interesting to hear what the driver's wife has to say; although she's not an independent witness, her recollection of events will be key in court.

[mazda lover]

The protesting cyclists claimed that this protest was to highlight cyclist safety...

From my reading of the case, this is not a case of a drunk driver hitting a cyclist...it's an altercation between 2 men...one of them who happens to be a cyclist, but not riding at the time. The other being the driver of a car. I don't see how this has anything to do with cycling safety and rights in the city.

Of course, both drivers and cyclists agree that the roads are in bad condition. Riding bike isn't really in the Toronto culture as it's really only doable 8 months out of the yr...unlike Amsterdam where cycling is cultural and city planning revolved around it. It is unfair to say that Toronto does not support cycling becuase until about 15 yrs ago, the city was still relatively sparsely populated that cycling (and the green movement) wasn't the "responsible thing to do" like it is today.

Regardless of whether that dude was a cyclist or not, if you jumped into my convertible, I can't help but think that I might do the same thing.

well said +1

[Unoriginalusername]

as more information has come out on this incident i retract my comments as it relates to this particular incident. this is not a cycling incident... it is a drunk fool who attacked someone in a convertable and the driver did what most anyone would do to try and escape

[JMAK74]

Example, night time and car driving down a street that has no stop signs for it and following speed limit and doing nothing illegal (full lights on, all in working order, everything). Biker coming up to a stop sign for him but decides for whatever reason to keep going thinking he can beat the car or is otherwise impaired with alcohol/drugs/whatever that it just doesn't register that there is a car. Car tries to stop but can't and hits bike. Worst case, biker dies and person driving car is likely charged. Best case, biker lives but is hurt, again, person driving car is likely charged.


As the way you have described it - in the end - the person on the bicyle would be charged with not stopping at the stop sign and the driver wouldn't be charged. In Toronto couple years back they had an incident of a driver hittin and killed a motorcyclist under similar circ's - had the driver no fled the scene, he wouldn't have been charged with anyting as the motorcylcist had illegally entered the intersection - basically similar to what you have described above.

That being said, I do have to agree with you that in the end, when things to go horribly between a car and either a bike or pedistrian - that drivers of cars/trucks tend to have the hammer put on them immeidately.

[Iceman_F1]

As the way you have described it - in the end - the person on the bicyle would be charged with not stopping at the stop sign and the driver wouldn't be charged. In Toronto couple years back they had an incident of a driver hittin and killed a motorcyclist under similar circ's - had the driver no fled the scene, he wouldn't have been charged with anyting as the motorcylcist had illegally entered the intersection - basically similar to what you have described above.

That being said, I do have to agree with you that in the end, when things to go horribly between a car and either a bike or pedistrian - that drivers of cars/trucks tend to have the hammer put on them immeidately.

I don't recall that incident. But yeah, that was the general point I was making. People see the person in the car at fault before they think of anything else...

[kramr]

I used to cycle heavy, something like 1600k a month. I stopped at stop signs, when coming to a light I would stop behind the car that just passed me etc. I followed the rules of the road as if I were driving a car. Yes, I agree totally, there are some cyclists out there that should not be on the road as they are jumping curbs to pass cars or avoid lights or even simply pulling up along side the right hand side of a car that just passed them. I don't like passing a cyclist twice as a driver hence my reason for stopping behind the car, in the centre of the lane, that just passed me. When the light went green I snapped my cleats into my pedals and moved over to the right. In the city, on a good stretch with no lights or stop signs I would usually clip along as close to the curb as possible going about 35 to 40 kph. There were quite a few times where I exceeded the speed limit on a good stretch which is when I took the centre of the road. There are a lot of drivers out there that need to reconize the fact that there are cyclists on the road, good ones or bad ones, they do exist.
I had a pickup truck turn into my lane (I was heading north and he wanted to go south) well we collided head on at approx. (my estimate speed from a buddy about a block behind me) 50 to 60 kmh. The driver of the truck of the truck didn't see my light, my white t shirt, my white helmet on a very well lit road at 9:50pm. I went over the hood and cab of the truck and landed in the opposing lane of traffic. I suffered numberous breaks and lacerations and a closed head injury (brain damage). The driver of the truck was charged with Turn Not in Safety under the Highway Traffic Act, he was convicted in court after fighing it. I don't remember a thing about the accident, from about 30 min. prior to, to about a week afterwards. A month in the hospitial and 10 months of various forms of therapy. I was lucky!!
Long story short (I know to late), I think cyclists should be on the road or path if available and maintained properly by the city. Cyclists should be aware of drivers and the fact that they are hard to see, night time or day time, and should be predictable to a driver that does see them also drivers need to pay attention to that fact that there may be cyclists on the road no matter what time of day and look for them and treat them as a vehicle of the road, give them room when the room is available and if there is no room available, slow down until there is room.
True I am a little biased on this topic but I am trying to remain as neutral as I can because I am a cyclist and a driver.
My two cents!!

[yearoftherat]

Working at a major trauma center, I see the aftermath of vehicles vs cyclists. As an avid cyclist myself, I hate riding in this city. This city is def not bike friendly in regards to bike lanes, etc. It never has been and as much as the mayor talks, it will never be. I agree with kramr that cyclists should be aware of what is going around them.

[Chester_Lampwick]

Great post kramr! You should become a cyclist re-educator or something. Man that was an awful accident you had.

I would not consider myself a cyclist. I was commuting to work this summer on a rail trail free from cars. Unfortunately, the end of the trail is two blocks from my house. Less than a block from my house, some :AH in a car pulls out in front of me, after I thought I had made eye contact. Well, knowing I'd be hit by this guy, or into the side of his car I grabbed my brakes hard. A little too much front, and over the handlebars I go. During my flight I managed to get my hands out, and broke my fall not even scraping myself. Marks on my hands gone the next day. My ribs hurt for six weeks.

As for the guy in the car? Didn't stop. Must have seen me on the ground in his mirrors. Not to generalize, but 18 - 20 year old punk. I should have approached him like a known drunk... That will teach me not to discriminate

So that ends two weeks of bicycle commuting

[Scottobot]

...you have to be an idiot to bike in downtown.

I guess I'm an idiot then. :flaming

I live in Brampton, I take the GO train to Union, and I bike from Union to Jarvis/Bloor. If it's raining I take the TTC. I've been doing this for the summer. Fortunately, knock on wood, I have had no incidents. The closest calls I have had were with pedestrians, in fact, who didn't look before stepping out onto the street since they didn't hear a car coming.

I do think Toronto needs to do more to promote cycling as a viable and safe option. It's great to be outside, cycling promotes health and fitness, and it's enviro-friendly. To me, driving cars in downtown Toronto is really inefficient and wasteful (although I recognize that many people may have little choice). Bikes are slow? On my way back to Union (slightly downhill) I often get from my workplace to Front St. as quickly as cars do, what with all the red lights and congestion (and no, I don't ride like an idiot).

All this talk about licensing and insuring cyclists strikes me as ridiculous. Adding red tape to a the process to someone getting onto a bike will just prevent people from using bikes as commuters at all, and I'd be really embarrassed to be living in the first country in the world (that I know of) that's so prudish and up-tight that we actually license people to ride a freaking bike. I don't think it would save lives and I don't think it would make people ride more responsibly.. it would just keep people off bikes period, which I think is a bad thing.

Anyway, I'm a little embarrassed about the demonstration that took place pursuant to this guy's death. Clearly a shame someone died, but not exactly a great representation of the cycling community in terms of character. I agree, I'm not sure I wouldn't have tried to take off if a freaky looking drunk and aggressive guy was trying to attack me in my convertible. I hope I never have to find out.

[JSI]

I guess I'm an idiot then. :flaming

On my way back to Union (slightly downhill) I often get from my workplace to Front St. as quickly as cars do, what with all the red lights and congestion.



So I guess you don't obey red lights then?:pop

[Scottobot]

So I guess you don't obey red lights then?:pop

I absolutely never go through a red light. I do not want to get killed.
What I mean is that there so many red lights downtown that from light to light I catch up.

[froggy]

All this talk about licensing and insuring cyclists strikes me as ridiculous. Adding red tape to a the process to someone getting onto a bike will just prevent people from using bikes as commuters at all, and I'd be really embarrassed to be living in the first country in the world (that I know of) that's so prudish and up-tight that we actually license people to ride a freaking bike. I don't think it would save lives and I don't think it would make people ride more responsibly.. it would just keep people off bikes period, which I think is a bad thing.



this is your opinion and your entitled to it. Although i must say that you are completely wrong. As a cyclist I would have thought that you would welcome something like this. Knowing that (for the most part) like drivers on the road that the other cyclists should have at least some education on how to ride a bike on an active street with other users and vehicles. People require licenses for other forms of transportation and it doesn't stop them from using them.

Second point we would not be the first country in the world to do this. Portugal which i know first hand bicycles have to have a license plate at least to ride on a public road.

Thirdly we are a country in a temperate zone, which means that we have winter and snow, which does not make for viable or safe means of transportation/commuting for aprox 1/4 of the year. The last thing that we need for both cyclists and drivers are bikes slipping and sliding out of control in icy conditions and trying to share already constricted lanes (because of the snow piled up on the sides, which in many cases consists of the bike lanes{ in my opinion the only good reason for the existence of bike lanes in this city})

to your last point. I would rather have less people on bikes but having them be more responsible and educated than the free for all that we have now. Toronto isn't and never will be a bike friendly city unless 2 specific things happen.

1) Global warming makes the yearly temperature in Toronto like that in Southern Europe and
2) The infrastructure of all our major thoroughfares is completely and radically changed to accommodate pedestrians, cyclists, cars, and public transit

Oh and PS the only reason traffic is as bad as it actually is, is because we have an anti car mayor who is doing everything in his power to make the downtown core as car unfriendly as possible.

[emcdonnell]

I agree with licensing for anyone looking to ride bikes on the public roads. With that said it should not be difficult or expensive. Lets say $20 bucks for license and require a simple test regarding the rules of the road (as relating to a bike). To many people on bikes do not follow any rules, This makes them unpredictable and therefore dangerous to other vehicles and themselves (yes there are plenty of bad drivers out there to). If bikes are going to share the road (and they have every right to do so) they must be aware of the rules and follow them. The only way to ensure that they know the rules is to make them prove their knowledge with a test of some kind and issue a licence that proves they have the knowledge. It also makes them accountable. If they know they are breaking the law then they can't claim ignorance as a defense.

[Scottobot]

this is your opinion and your entitled to it. Although i must say that you are completely wrong.

Great, so that's your opinion, and I think you're completely wrong.


As a cyclist I would have thought that you would welcome something like this.

I would not welcome a fee to ride a bike, or wasting my time attending a course to hear some instructor tell me that riding through a red light is bad.


Knowing that (for the most part) like drivers on the road that the other cyclists should have at least some education on how to ride a bike on an active street with other users and vehicles.

Don't they teach bicycle safety in schools any more? They did when I was a kid, and taught us how to use hand signals and stuff. Shouldn't that be enough?


People require licenses for other forms of transportation and it doesn't stop them from using them.

Having a car to get around in most parts of Canada is practically a necessity. So it's worth it for people to go through the licensing program and pay insurance. I seriously doubt people would elect to do so for bicycles. I probably wouldn't. One of the reasons I ride when the weather's good is to save on TTC fare.


Second point we would not be the first country in the world to do this. Portugal which i know first hand bicycles have to have a license plate at least to ride on a public road.

I didn't know that. I did a quick Google and I didn't see anything about it other than for bike couriers. I wonder what the licensing requirements are (courses, education). I also wonder what the cyclist population in Portugal is, and whether the licensing program has helped reduce accidents. Additionally, when I worked in Lisbon for a few months in 2001 I noticed that drivers there are very aggressive.
I did see that it appears as though California requires cyclists to pay a licensing fee of $3 every three years. I don't see any education/course requirements. So it looks like a money grab.


Thirdly we are a country in a temperate zone, which means that we have winter and snow, which does not make for viable or safe means of transportation/commuting for aprox 1/4 of the year. The last thing that we need for both cyclists and drivers are bikes slipping and sliding out of control in icy conditions and trying to share already constricted lanes (because of the snow piled up on the sides, which in many cases consists of the bike lanes{ in my opinion the only good reason for the existence of bike lanes in this city})

I don't think I mentioned winter, and I have no intention of riding in winter personally. I agree it's way too dangerous to be slipping around on a busy road with a bike. When I lived in Germany I rode all year round because there are so many bike paths I didn't have to ride on the road at all.


I would rather have less people on bikes but having them be more responsible and educated than the free for all that we have now.

I'm not sure why everyone's talking about education. Do you think that people who ride their bikes through red lights do it because they don't know it's wrong or unsafe? I guess they do it because they're not worried about consequences, but I'm only guessing because I don't do it.

I'm pretty sure the woman I saw driving a car on Thursday afternoon at Yonge and King had a license and knew that doing a 3-point U-turn on Yonge Street is illegal, but she did it anyway. Taking people's cars away for doing 50kph over the limit doesn't stop everyone from doing it. Telling people what's right and wrong doesn't mean they're actually going to do it.


Toronto isn't and never will be a bike friendly city unless 2 specific things happen.

1) Global warming makes the yearly temperature in Toronto like that in Southern Europe

I don't think that's necessary for making cycling an attractive option for commuters when there's no snow on the ground.



2) The infrastructure of all our major thoroughfares is completely and radically changed to accommodate pedestrians, cyclists, cars, and public transit

Isn't this what cyclists would like to see? I know I would. The longer we wait to modernize Toronto's infrastructure, the harder it will be.


Oh and PS the only reason traffic is as bad as it actually is, is because we have an anti car mayor who is doing everything in his power to make the downtown core as car unfriendly as possible.

As far as I know, the current mayor has been in this position since 2003, and traffic in downtown Toronto was bad way before that. Is it worse today? Probably, but my understanding is the overall car population is growing so I'm not sure I'd blame it all on the mayor. Anyway as mentioned I'm not opposed to reducing the number of cars in the downtown core by making it less convenient to drive there. I lived in Munich for several years, where owning a car is more of a liability than a benefit, and if you look up in the middle of the pedestrian-only downtown core the sky is a beautiful blue, not smog-glazed haze.

[Chester_Lampwick]

I'm not sure I agree fully with tsaotablem.



I would not welcome a fee to ride a bike, or wasting my time attending a course to hear some instructor tell me that riding through a red light is bad.
Yeah, I didn't like when those driving instructors were harping on and on about right of way... Who needs that?


Don't they teach bicycle safety in schools any more? They did when I was a kid, and taught us how to use hand signals and stuff. Shouldn't that be enough?
Of course. I mean what you were taught and forgot in the second grade is all you'd ever need to know. Riding at 10km/h through a suburban neighbourhood from school to baseball diamond is exactly the same as riding through rush hour traffic with construction, delivery trucks, streetcars, traffic lights, one way streets, crosswalks, etc. No need to revisit this. Ever. Wait I missed that day(30 minute assembly) of school.


I did see that it appears as though California requires cyclists to pay a licensing fee of $3 every three years. I don't see any education/course requirements. So it looks like a money grab.
$3 every 3 years? $1 per year is a money grab? Probably doesn't cover all the administrative costs


I'm not sure why everyone's talking about education. Do you think that people who ride their bikes through red lights do it because they don't know it's wrong or unsafe? I guess they do it because they're not worried about consequences, but I'm only guessing because I don't do it.
Yes this is the only example of unsafe cycling behavior. Cruising up between stopped cars and the curb is entirely safe.


I'm pretty sure the woman I saw driving a car on Thursday afternoon at Yonge and King had a license and knew that doing a 3-point U-turn on Yonge Street is illegal, but she did it anyway. Taking people's cars away for doing 50kph over the limit doesn't stop everyone from doing it. Telling people what's right and wrong doesn't mean they're actually going to do it.
So why educate/licence drivers at all? I mean, they'll do what they want, right?


Isn't this what cyclists would like to see? I know I would. The longer we wait to modernize Toronto's infrastructure, the harder it will be.
So how should we collect tax money from cyclists for this? Spandex tax?


I lived in Munich for several years, where owning a car is more of a liability than a benefit, and if you look up in the middle of the pedestrian-only downtown core the sky is a beautiful blue, not smog-glazed haze.
I don't know. Modern car exhausts are pretty darn clean when it comes to particulate matter. Is it possible that Munich doesn't have lake effect humidity? Is it possible that smoke that mixes with this comes from other places than downtown, and other sources other than cars?

[froggy]

thank you chester for saving me the effort of writing another rebuttal, you pretty much took the words out of my mouth. Another thing I didn't mention is that bicycles are not proper vehicles for families and for most people with jobs. You can't pick up and drop off your kids with a 10 speed. Unlike myself who works for a highschool, and in the phys-ed department, and has access to a shower at work, people will sweat commuting to and from work and I don't know how popular or how long you will be at your job site if you smell like you stepped off of a basketball court everytime you show up for work!

[mazda lover]

thank you chester for saving me the effort of writing another rebuttal, you pretty much took the words out of my mouth. Another thing I didn't mention is that bicycles are not proper vehicles for families and for most people with jobs. You can't pick up and drop off your kids with a 10 speed. Unlike myself who works for a highschool, and in the phys-ed department, and has access to a shower at work, people will sweat commuting to and from work and I don't know how popular or how long you will be at your job site if you smell like you stepped off of a basketball court everytime you show up for work!

so true, thought the same...smelly people

[mazda lover]

On CP24 they interviewed someone on the street where the accident occured said if the person that killed the cyclist wasn't severely punished he said the city will explode
What a dumb As*

[SSmoked]

the only thing i have to say to cyclists is GTFO the road when theres a side walk beside u.
u dont understand how hard it is driving around a corner or up a hill and seeing a cyclists in your lane and u gotta move out of their way, endangering your life, when theres a friggen sidewalk they can be riding on.
i cant speak for the peoblem in the city tho cause i rarely drive dowtown.

[kramr]

the only thing i have to say to cyclists is GTFO the road when theres a side walk beside u.
u dont understand how hard it is driving around a corner or up a hill and seeing a cyclists in your lane and u gotta move out of their way, endangering your life, when theres a friggen sidewalk they can be riding on.
i cant speak for the peoblem in the city tho cause i rarely drive dowtown.

LOL
No it is you that doesn't understand what it is like to ride a $2000 bicycle on a sidewalk wondering if you rims are going to take the pounding of the expansion cracks, the swerving around cars who are waiting to get into traffic from side streets and block the sidewalk, moving around un predictable pedestrians, going up and down the ramps going on and off the road from the sidewalk at intersections etc. I know exactly what it is like going up a hill or around a corner only to have a cyclist I have to move for, remember, we all drive as this is a Mazda fourm. Try doing it with a city bus or a truck, actually, if you have problems doing it with a Mazda than maybe you shouldn't try it with a larger vehicle. I've had my bicycle up to 76 kmh on a secondary highway that was flat, so I know how to get a bicycle moving city or not. I refuse to get on the sidewalk and ride, not to mention London does have a bylaw against it too!

[froggy]

LOL
No it is you that doesn't understand what it is like to ride a $2000 bicycle on a sidewalk wondering if you rims are going to take the pounding of the expansion cracks

I"m sorry but with a $2000 bike do you really have to worry about expansion cracks? unless all the money was spent on the frame, and gears, with cheap rims. I'm assuming you're talking about a road bike with >10mm wide rims but still??? I'm not used to road bikes as much as I am with mountain bikes and freestyles, so forgive me if this an actual legitimate concern

[kramr]

I"m sorry but with a $2000 bike do you really have to worry about expansion cracks? unless all the money was spent on the frame, and gears, with cheap rims. I'm assuming you're talking about a road bike with >10mm wide rims but still??? I'm not used to road bikes as much as I am with mountain bikes and freestyles, so forgive me if this an actual legitimate concern

Well, I do have a road bicycle with campy aero rims, not the cheapest. Sure they can take some abuse but the constant pounding of expansion cracks not to mention the up and down on and off the sidewalk at every intersection is not the best for them. Warps don't fix themselfs and hitting a bump at the wrong angle warps. Good frame with STI shifting, Rossin Ghilbi and my seat doesn't have a whole lot of padding either. It is meant for roads, not sidewalks or gravel lanes, roads. I'm not tour material so riding on cobblestone roads in France isn't gonna happen!!

[alhope34]

Whole article if not already posted...

http://www.thestar.com/article/689220


And people have to remember, there are two sides to the story...

http://www.dropmachine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=33394


I used to be an avid rider and still ride sometimes. Ive put in a lot of time and clocked a lot of kms on the roads in Toronto and the GTA. I cant even count how many close calls Ive had, none of which were my cause. Lucky only been hit twice. One time a taxi went right up beside me and side swiped me, another time someone was driving in the same lane as me and turned right directly infront of me. I smashed into their rear door and left a nice dent. Luckily I slowed enough I didnt go right over the car. Both of these people just took off like nothing happened. I always give riders plenty of space when I drive and be courteous on the road because I know what riding is actually like. Anyone who gets angry at bikers for just being on the road, period, should actually try riding sometime. I hate it when people whine and cry when they actually have to move over 3 feet to give someone else enough room so they can speed by them.

[kramr]

Whole article if not already posted...

http://www.thestar.com/article/689220


And people have to remember, there are two sides to the story...

http://www.dropmachine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=33394


I used to be an avid rider and still ride sometimes. Ive put in a lot of time and clocked a lot of kms on the roads in Toronto and the GTA. I cant even count how many close calls Ive had, none of which were my cause. Lucky only been hit twice. One time a taxi went right up beside me and side swiped me, another time someone was driving in the same lane as me and turned right directly infront of me. I smashed into their rear door and left a nice dent. Luckily I slowed enough I didnt go right over the car. Both of these people just took off like nothing happened. I always give riders plenty of space when I drive and be courteous on the road because I know what riding is actually like. Anyone who gets angry at bikers for just being on the road, period, should actually try riding sometime. I hate it when people whine and cry when they actually have to move over 3 feet to give someone else enough room so they can speed by them.

Agreed!!!!!

[froggy]

If you want to be technical there are actually 3 sides to every story (no matter how objective/impartial you try to be)
1) your side
2) their side
3) the truth

[kramr]

If you want to be technical there are actually 3 sides to every story (no matter how objective/impartial you try to be)
1) your side
2) their side
3) the truth

True and fair enough!
End all be all, I'm not going to get in a pi**ing match with anyone and had no intent with any of my previous posts. As a cyclist who nearly died because of a driver who was at fault, I am a little biased. I am also a driver of my car and much larger vehicles who has to be on the look out for cyclists. I can see both sides of the story. I now work with the driver of the truck that hit me, I don't see him everyday but when I do it is like nothing has ever happened. S**t happens, accidents happen. If he intened to hit me then it would be a different story!!

[SirWanker]

the only thing i have to say to cyclists is GTFO the road when theres a side walk beside u.
u dont understand how hard it is driving around a corner or up a hill and seeing a cyclists in your lane and u gotta move out of their way, endangering your life, when theres a friggen sidewalk they can be riding on.
i cant speak for the peoblem in the city tho cause i rarely drive dowtown.

Dude, depending on the bike's wheel circumference, it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk. If you were aware of your driving surroundings, you would not be "endangering' your pathetic life.

[Fuman]

Saw a cyclists running a red on major mac yesterday.
Dude almost got killed by a Lexus RX, likely the RX dodged him.
Like all things there are bad apples in each group.

Question to cyclists: The cyclists I see wearing spandex, these people are practicing or doing recreationally? If so, how come they don't stick to residential streets? are residential more dangerous?

[Unoriginalusername]

Saw a cyclists running a red on major mac yesterday.
Dude almost got killed by a Lexus RX, likely the RX dodged him.
Like all things there are bad apples in each group.

Question to cyclists: The cyclists I see wearing spandex, these people are practicing or doing recreationally? If so, how come they don't stick to residential streets? are residential more dangerous?

residential are too crowded with cars, people dogs stop signs and lights, if you are going out for a 10,20,30 km ride you don't want to be stopping every other minute thus the outskirts of town.

Ride 30km into the wind with a lose fitting shirt and shorts and you'll understand why most people opt for some sort of clothing with less wind resistance

[SSmoked]

Dude, depending on the bike's wheel circumference, it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk. If you were aware of your driving surroundings, you would not be "endangering' your pathetic life.

WOW! thanks bud, wasnt aware u knew what my life was all about. :blah internet thugs :AH.

2tones of car vs 150+ pounds of human. cyclists ur taking that gamble.

[SirWanker]

2tones of car vs 150+ pounds of human. cyclists ur taking that gamble.

yes we are, taking a gamble with attitude queens like you.

[Chester_Lampwick]

All right, all right. That's enough. It was uncalled for to have SirWanker insult SSmoked like that. It was rude of SSmoked to post the GTFO post. Not cuz of the content, but cuz of the friggen spelling and lack of capitalization.

Now, I'm sure this thread will be locked soon, so here's my pushing it to the edge.

Hitler drove a car. Hitler was evil. Ergo, all car drivers are Hitler.:flaming

[DingBat]

Sounds to me like you're implying drivers are not responsible for anyone's safety on the road but their own.


Not at all. Why would you say that?

I'm saying that cyclists counting on drivers to act like they are going to protect cyclists is stupid, given the relative risks. Btw, old driving training courses like Defensive Drivers preaches basically the same thing: assume everyone else on the road is a maniac.

Just this weekend on Lakeshore, I witnessed a cyclist dodge into the middle of a lane, inches in front of a car, to avoid a second car making a right turn. Same cyclist then proceeded to run a red light. There's a guy riding with the built in assumption that drivers are going to protect his sorry ass. 99.9% of drivers will. But that .1 % is a killer. Literally.

[Scottobot]

All right, all right. That's enough.

Interesting that you're playing the referee now, after your previous post full of sarcasm and ridicule.

I just wanted to clarify my position on a few things:



Yeah, I didn't like when those driving instructors were harping on and on about right of way... Who needs that?


I don't think I said anything negative about driving instruction. But you do bring up a good point (as have others): defensive driving sharing the road with cyclists is taught in driver's ed. I know not everyone takes driver's ed (although I think it should be mandatory), but if you missed that second grade assembly or forgot your hand signals I think the driver education process should be an adequate refresher.



Of course. I mean what you were taught and forgot in the second grade is all you'd ever need to know.


Maybe since I've been riding a bike all through school and university through till now it's helped me remember my hand signals. There are only three that I use, which isn't too much to remember. And it's reviewed in the driver education process, IIRC.



Riding at 10km/h through a suburban neighbourhood from school to baseball diamond is exactly the same as riding through rush hour traffic with construction, delivery trucks, streetcars, traffic lights, one way streets, crosswalks, etc.

Hand signals, obey your stop signs and red lights, and be aware of everything around you. Same principles, but when you're old enough to be riding in rush hour hopefully you've greater ability to anticipate and better awareness, since you're likely a licensed and experienced driver as well by that time.



No need to revisit this. Ever. Wait I missed that day(30 minute assembly) of school.


As stated previously, this is (or was, and should be) reviewed as part of driver education. My point is having an instructor wag a finger at an adult telling them to be good on their bikes is not going to do any good and is therefore a waste of time and money.



$3 every 3 years? $1 per year is a money grab? Probably doesn't cover all the administrative costs


Right, so it's either a useless (assuming there are no requirements other than to pay a token sum of money) money grab if it's profitable, or a useless way for gov't to squander away money if it doesn't cover the admin costs. It doesn't save lives. I only glanced at the website, but the premise of the program is to have a record of your bike for recovery in case it's stolen.



Yes this is the only example of unsafe cycling behavior. Cruising up between stopped cars and the curb is entirely safe.


Sure there are other examples of unsafe behaviour, but this was an example raised more than once in previous posts so I used it.
Having said that, I don't think passing a stopped car along the curb if there's room is "dangerous". If passing a stationary object is dangerous, then we all might as well throw our bikes in the garbage.



So why educate/licence drivers at all? I mean, they'll do what they want, right?


Please.
I think there should be more driver education if anything. But riding a bike? No.
Although, a case could be made that it would be a good idea to require a bike license if the rider doesn't have a driver's license. And if you do have a driver's license, traffic offenses committed on your bike could count against your driving record (as they do in Germany). But I think requiring a separate license to ride a bike for licensed drivers is entirely redundant.



Modern car exhausts are pretty darn clean when it comes to particulate matter.


Yes, but:
a) not everyone has a modern car
b) a small amount multiplied by thousands of cars per day equals a lot



Is it possible that Munich doesn't have lake effect humidity? Is it possible that smoke that mixes with this comes from other places than downtown, and other sources other than cars?


Yes, yes and yes. But dealing with those issues is a separate discussion. I'm not sure what can be done about the lake effect weather, or cleaning up other sources of pollution, but I thought everyone was pretty much on board with the idea that lots of cars make for pollution and as such the most immediate positive benefit we can make is reducing the number of cars on the road. I guess I was wrong.

[Timmy]

Really, there are going to be people who are ignorant or just idiots in any group. I think most people are courteous and share the road, but there's always going to be people that think the rules don't apply to them. I don't think all drivers are jackasses because of the people who pull onto the exit lane just so they can pass a few cars on the highway, then cut back onto the lanes that aren't exiting. So thinking all bikers are jackasses because some of them react stupidly is unfair as well.

[DruidB]

Hitler drove a car. Hitler was evil. Ergo, all car drivers are Hitler.:flaming

Ill get started on growing my moustach... Any vinyl suppliers have 18" swastika's in stock?

[froggy]

Please.
I think there should be more driver education if anything. But riding a bike? No.
Although, a case could be made that it would be a good idea to require a bike license if the rider doesn't have a driver's license. And if you do have a driver's license, traffic offenses committed on your bike could count against your driving record (as they do in Germany). But I think requiring a separate license to ride a bike for licensed drivers is entirely redundant.



this already happens here your drivers license is affected regardless of the mode of transportation. be it car, motorcylce, bike, boat or skateboard. Ie if you do something stupid on any vehicle and get caught it'll affect your license. The thing is again without plates on a bike it's a lot harder to track down and once again there is the apparent lack of willingness to police bicycle traffic as there is to police motor vehicles. In my opinion I'll tell you what I think the reason is!
1) 2 ton car speeding and weaving in and out of traffic + looses control or clips somebody = (possibly) 1 dead idiot (driver of car) + however many other people cars that also get hit.
2) 180+ lb bike (rider+bike) doing the same thing as above = (possibly) 1 dead idiot and probably some people with cuts and bruises, sometimes fatalities.

You can see then why given limited police presence ( they can't be everywhere at once, and despite how much we all kid with them most of them are actually trying to make the place safer) they will tend to focus on the vehicle that has the most dire consequences for innocent people. It's sad to say but it's not a priority for police to police bikes. To me to be perfectly honest if you want to risk your life, doing stupid things then well, you play with fire sometimes you get burned. I don't cry for people who burn themselves! to be perfectly honest we don't need them in society! (That is directed to all people who do stupid things not just cyclists and drivers)

[SirWanker]

All right, all right. That's enough. It was uncalled for to have SirWanker insult SSmoked like that. It was rude of SSmoked to post the GTFO post. Not cuz of the content, but cuz of the friggen spelling and lack of capitalization.

Now, I'm sure this thread will be locked soon, so here's my pushing it to the edge.

Hitler drove a car. Hitler was evil. Ergo, all car drivers are Hitler.:flaming

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