Let's talk power

[Fobio]

Enough of the mild mannered threads about how to drive the car or making it look purty...:blah:blah

Let's talk about power...:headbang

Guys on MSF, ever hungry have made quite a bit of progress...I'm never one to look for big power as I feel what I have is adequate, but come winter time and cabin fever, we all like to daydream a bit and see what we can do.

Recently, there is a promising thread on MSF about a PTP SST along with a PG Mani making ~350whp and over 380wtq on stock internals along with a Akuma Pro-tune on the AP...sounds very tasty.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f284/ptp-sst-my-dyno-39402/

Anyone thinking about this down the road? My primary budget has always been on handling...so coil-overs and tires are always near top of the list, but I've been thinking about the following:

1. Re-working the K04 or go big(ger) turbo?
2. Exhaust manifold. PG? Race Root? DCR? Steed Speed? I'd ceramic coat the mani along with the DP.
3. Intake manifold. Guys out in Alberta is working on a carbon fibre plenum with proper runners with velocity stacks...work looks promising.
4. Meth...as in Methanol/Water injection.

We're talking about the Mazdaspeed3's here...keep it on topic.

[spd frk]

Personally I would probably run a PG manifold, with a reworked K04. I don't think the stock motor can really full utilize a 30series garrett. a reworked K04 should give better top end power, and still have a solid low end, which I like around the track for slow corners.

I am not sure about meth, I would definately like the TT liquid to air intercooler for more stable cooling, plsu this would leave more airflow to go through the rad, instead of intercooler then rad.

For management I would go with a CPE standback and have dynamotorsports tune it.

This should make close to 350/350 I would think. With my setup I dynod at 280/300 at the wheels 2 weeks ago on a dynojet. Too much more power and 1-3rd will be totally useless.

J

[Fobio]

last I chk'd w/ TT, they're too busy doing the GB kits for the US guys...they said if I can get a bunch of us committed, they'd do a L/A IC kit for us, along w/ the front engine mount of theirs, but it is pricey.

Race Roots is working on a BT set-up that moves hp and tq higher up in the rev range, and it addresses the "too much power" in the lower rpm issue, which also addresses traction...I can't say whether that's EXACTLY what I'm looking for since I haven't driven a MS3 like that...yet. But the fact that they are looking into this to preserve the motor from too much low-end trq is a GOOD THING.

My friend, 350/350 is so 2008... =) RR's kit is looking to make 400whp/350wtrq...which I think is too much, but the R&D behind it should make your/mine 350/350 much safer...

[3DEE]

280 whp and 300 wtq are good numbers for this car, being FWD and all. I don't know if it's worth going any further. There are too many blown engines here and US. To tell you the truth it's a bit scary.

[Fobio]

don't believe the hype and don't be afraid of the fast bro.

I swear, the best piece of unqualified advise I can give anyone who owns a MS3: drive it like you mean it, rev it out thru the gears...drive it in full boost and shut down to full vacuum...it's that *****-footing, partial throttle driving that clogs the motor...for everyone that blew that you get to read about, there are at least 5 guys out there making safe 350whp...

back on topic...

I'm very keen to see the results of the Steed Speed log-style manifold...they're CDN and the work is CNC'd.

[Big Dad]

Will 350 w/hp and 350 w/tq be enough to beat an evo or an STI? Because the consensus is that 280 w/hp and 300 w/tq can't touch those cars. Lol WTF!

[cy88]

Will 350 w/hp and 350 w/tq be enough to beat an evo or an STI? Because the consensus is that 280 w/hp and 300 w/tq can't touch those cars. Lol WTF!

At launch from idle, it'll be hard. It's a FWD car afterall. However, I can catch up to stock STi all day long on a roll, I only have a SRI. This has been discussed before.

[Fobio]

at this kind of power level, I'll be hunting Corvettes and those pesky 450whp RX7's...lol...amongst the many 200+whp Civics/Hondas @ ~2000lbs...

The only EVO's and STi's I'll be worried about are the ones @ 400+whp with proper drivers...

[3DEE]

Yea, don't the stock Evo/Sti's make about 230-250 whp? Depending on the dyno of course.
Shouldn't be too hard to beat that. But lightly modded Evo X's are easy over 300 whp. And they have bulletproof motors. With our FWD it becomes a tougher task. But Vincent, you have an intake and DP + AP. Why not go full exhaust and FMIC and with a tune you should put some decent power. Probably in the 320-330 whp area.

[Fobio]

Yea, don't the stock Evo/Sti's make about 230-250 whp? Depending on the dyno of course.
Shouldn't be too hard to beat that. But lightly modded Evo X's are easy over 300 whp. And they have bulletproof motors. With our FWD it becomes a tougher task. But Vincent, you have an intake and DP + AP. Why not go full exhaust and FMIC and with a tune you should put some decent power. Probably in the 320-330 whp area.

CBE and FMIC will not create anymore power for me...besides, mods don't add up like they normally do on this car, unlike other cars...

guys on MSF get real butt-hurt when they dump $3g's on a build to net LESS POWER. I don't have any secret to modding this car, but 300whp is EASY...you just need to right tune. To break 300whp safely and consistently has been done...the next plateau of SAFE 350whp is just beginning to be attainable. Yes, some guys have blew up @ ~350whp...but I'd say those pioneers did it the hard way...experimenting on their car along the way, with wonky fuel pressures and 1st gen parts...

To be honest, all I really NEED is about 330whp to take Big Dad down the straight...lol...but hey, while I'm dreaming, I want to see what $3000 or properly spent money on TODAY's parts can get us...

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

So, let me preface this by saying I don't know what I'm talking about and that I don't have any facts to prove it, but I'm gonna play devils advocate anyway...

I'll start by saying that modern engines, unless they are on a vehicle serving a large and known 'tuner' market, are rarely over-engineered anymore. The Mazdaspeed3 really is still an econo-box performance vehicle and to keep costs at a reasonable level and for the mass market since the DISI engine is used in the CX-7 on a different tune, I highly suspect Mazda didn't over-engineer these engines...

So, I'm thinking on the conservative end, Mazda engineers probably designed the stock components and internals on this engine with maybe a 20-25% threshold for power margins which translates to a gain of about 66HP and 70ft. lb. increase of torque over stock. If you want to go high end, maybe the engineering threshold is a 50% margin which gains you an increase of 132HP and 140ft.lb torque over stock.

Personally, I'm thinking the conservative engineering threshold is probably closer to the reality and anything exceeding that margin is a blown engine waiting to happen and is more a question of when and not a question of if.

Hope you all prove me entirely wrong.

[Fobio]

ZZB...I agree with you about the 20% threshold/uptake from stock from the engineering perspective...esp with today's engines, it is a given that they're not the Monsters from Japan, like the Supra's and RX7's of the 90's, where $10G's mean you can double your HP...

reading from recent threads, even $10G's on a MS3 won't net you over 350whp, if you don't spend it right...

I'm not advocating for big power, as those who know me knows that's NOT the point of the thread...but it is much more intriguing conversation than say, "Why do I get wheel hop?"

Consider this a last long look at the car's CURRENT potential...no one keeps a car forever, so in the meantime, let's talk about what we can do with it...

Just to share a little more with everyone...those who have been driving the car for awhile knows about the ups and downs with the MS3...some of us are of the persuasion, that for all the bullsh!t we've put up with with the MS3, it is only logical for us to feel the NEED...no...ABSOLUTE NECESSITY to wring as much out of this car as possible, may it be power, utility, bragging rights, etc without blowing it up...

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

ZZB...I agree with you about the 20% threshold/uptake from stock from the engineering perspective...esp with today's engines, it is a given that they're not the Monsters from Japan, like the Supra's and RX7's of the 90's, where $10G's mean you can double your HP...

reading from recent threads, even $10G's on a MS3 won't net you over 350whp, if you don't spend it right...

I'm not advocating for big power, as those who know me knows that's NOT the point of the thread...but it is much more intriguing conversation than say, "Why do I get wheel hop?"

Consider this a last long look at the car's CURRENT potential...no one keeps a car forever, so in the meantime, let's talk about what we can do with it...

Just to share a little more with everyone...those who have been driving the car for awhile knows about the ups and downs with the MS3...some of us are of the persuasion, that for all the bullsh!t we've put up with with the MS3, it is only logical for us to feel the NEED...no...ABSOLUTE NECESSITY to wring as much out of this car as possible, may it be power, utility, bragging rights, etc without blowing it up...

I hear you Fobio and I understand.

I wish we could spend a little extra coin and mod this car safely...so that does interest me if it can be done 'safely'. I actually do plan on keeping my MS3 for quite some time and once the polish of newness wears off, it will become a dedicated track car and my daily driver will be something else.

Question though, and one thing I've always wanted to know, why do I get wheel hop? LOL. :chuckle:bang

[Fobio]

Question though, and one thing I've always wanted to know, why do I get wheel hop? LOL. :chuckle:bang

LOL

Hardie HA HA...

I think it's cuz your car has too little power and you can't drive standard...

:gone

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

LOL

Hardie HA HA...

I think it's cuz your car has too little power and you can't drive standard...

:gone

That must be it for sure...I'm gonna get me one of dem dere' 'automatic Speed3's' that people seem to be craving. That should fix the wheel hop. :chuckle

[rick@garage16.ca]

1. Re-working the K04 or go big(ger) turbo?
2. Exhaust manifold. PG? Race Root? DCR? Steed Speed? I'd ceramic coat the mani along with the DP.
3. Intake manifold. Guys out in Alberta is working on a carbon fibre plenum with proper runners with velocity stacks...work looks promising.
4. Meth...as in Methanol/Water injection.

We're talking about the Mazdaspeed3's here...keep it on topic.


1.Well bigger turbo is always a must for making more power. But with that being said, you may have to upgrade your fuel system as well depending on the turbo you get. (pump, injecters, 1:1 Ratio Fuel pressure reg.)

2. Exhaust manifold is also a good upgrade but for a stock or near stock turbo you may not get huge HP gains from it. Once again once you get a manifold make sure you know what turbo your gonna run do to turbo flange size and is it will use a wastegate and if so where to place the wastegate.

3. Intake manifold is a HUGE part on turbo system, proper runners with velocity stacks is a must as well and will get you the best power gains on a manifold. Dont forget when doing a manifold ALWAYS match the t.body with piping size. 2.5" is always a good set up for a street car. May have to bore out t.body or find a matching 2.5" one.

[sadd16]

the horsepower wars are pretty crazy now. I remember back in the 90s, when civics, integras were the car that everyone souped up....and were they ever under powered. Now cars have almost 300hp stock....wonder how much hp average cars will have in 10 years to come.

[Fobio]

Some recent developments...bigger turbo, more power thru AP, more Akuma, stock motor...

380whp/352wtq

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f338/gt3076-dyno-20psi-42229/


http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f257/briansrt4/MYdynographforaaron.jpg

[Fobio]

Race Roots complete turbo system:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f8/official-announcement-race-roots-turbo-kits-42812/


Here is the skinny:

Our Turbo System currently is putting down 401whp/358tq at 20 psi

Our Track times are 12.4@115.9

Our highest traps to date are 116.9

Can't wait to see this system on the road...

[mleblond]

very nice. But your pushing a car thats already over it's limits....

[4g.]

Aww drooooollll!!!!!
Just getting into the world of MS3's, have a few mod's but the thirst for more is still there.

[cereal83]

lol A Cobalt with a simple turbo upgrade in the image below!

http://sites.commercecreators.com/folder456/site_images_system/user/zzplnf510.bmp

[Fobio]

^^^ but it's still a cobalt.

[cereal83]

Yes it is

[Fobio]

very nice. But your pushing a car thats already over it's limits....

The Race Root system has a secondary fuel delivery system. I don't know the details yet, but it's likely some form of port injection (PI)...likely in the form of an intake manifold spacer. As such, it'd create a whole new playing field in terms of the engine's limits.

RR stated that the fuel system alone is ~$700.

[mleblond]

meh ill take the new cobalt...500$ tune and you have as much power than the ms3 with 3k of upgrades.

[Fobio]

meh ill take the new cobalt...500$ tune and you have as much power than the ms3 with 3k of upgrades.

lol...taking advice you were giving me last yr eh?

keep dreaming bro...you and I are riding the MS3 into the sunset...lol...

[mleblond]

lol yep....just hopping big dad sells his for an awd car or rwd ;)

[Fobio]

A lot has happened since this last update...Race Roots is no longer an authorized vendor on msf, and a few guys are out thousands of dollars for undelivered kits and e-tunes...

In the meantime, CP-e has been making progress with BT set-ups, that are hard to ignore:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f338/making-some-power-55098/


Well, The 388 was from 4/9/10. We were able to pick up 50 HP through a nice portion of the graph. "WE DID NOT BOTHER USING THE SNIFFER" AFR"S are high elevens

http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy276/Nizculman/2010-04-26221352.jpg


I didnt even know this was up.

So here's the skinny on it. This car is VERY untuned. His OEM wideband is reading 9ish:1 while his AEM is reading 11.5:1. As a result we didn't really touch timing or get aggressive anywhere. At this boost level there is EASILY 40+whp to be had if not 50+. As a result of the descrepency with the OEM wideband and his after market we held off.

His previous shop shredded the wires on the OEM wideband. When we first started it was flat lining 8:1 and I would pull fuel and nothing would change. He then took out the wideband, cleaned it, and taped up the mangled wires and it started reacting. I stopped tuning after only 2-3 changes to a basemap and we are waiting for the new one. Imagine the power once its actually tuned! you'll notice that at the top of the dyno it stops making power VERY shy of redline. it will make a ton more power once its finished being tuned. if this was graphed by rpm it would be making this power at 5500rpm or so meaning that this would be a mid 400whp dyno at that point. JAKE@CP-e