Turbo vs NA

[KyleSams]

Hey guys as you can tell I'm kind of new to the TM3 site. I was wondering I plan on modding my car in the future hopefully next summer is the plan. I was looking/ researching around and I found this company called Hiboost that makes turbo's for the past... i believe 5 years now. However I was wondering do think A) it is worth to turbo a Mazda3 ( i have a 2005 2.3L) or just keep it NA. The gains from the website looked very impressive however I have also heard that this lowers engine life. Sorry for so many questions just thought id like to get a general I dea of what you guys think of turbo's and such thanks a billion :) Kylee

ps ONE LAST THING I promise If I didnt go the turbo route what are some of the the NA inspired things I can do to my car?

[Fuman]

http://www.torontomazda3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12714&highlight=turbo+NA
http://www.torontomazda3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19650

let us know what questions you have after going through those two threads

[Donutz]

Go for Tripoint if you go turbo (F2 also has a turbo kit). Also F2 is about to release a stage 1 supercharger kit (supposedly later this month).

If you stay NA be prepared spend a bucket load of money to get close to 200 whp/wtq.

[iGOzoom]

i wouldn't drop a turbo kit into are cars.. its not worth the money, unless you just have tons and tons of money to blow lol..

[froggy]

i wouldn't drop a turbo kit into are cars.. its not worth the money, unless you just have tons and tons of money to blow lol..

your better off getting a car that already has a turbo and doing your modifications from there. That way you don't have to mess around with re programming you ecu, also you'd already have an LSD front end which is something you'd really want with an fwd turbo car

[midnightfxgt]

The car is a 2005, so its not always worth it to go with a MS3. The difference in price is VERY substantial!

As for people who say its not worth the trouble, dont mind them :) Until they have done it, and can speak from experience, its just an opinion.

I say go for it. You can make very very nice gains on the MZ3 with 8PSI, and not break much (MTX > ATX!). Who wouldnt want 240WHP for 4-5000? :)

-John

[Gen1GT]

I'm not sure that thread on NA helped answer any questions. Here's my low down in the difference between NA and FI:

NA Pros:
Better throttle response, especially at low RPM
Better engine compression braking
More linear power delivery
Larger powerband (when done correctly)
More reliable (depending on how far you go with it)
Better sounding (subjective)
Easier to tune
Less weight
Fuel consumption can remain reasonable (especially with higher compression)

NA Cons:
Expensive as sin
Less peak power output
Extreme builds sacrifice off-idle response
Less expertise available to help (fewer guys doing it)

FI Pros:
Way more power potential
Better HP/$ ratio
Bragging rights
BOV (if you think they sound cool, but I'm personally over it)
Readily available parts and technical support (plenty of guys doing it)

FI Cons:
Potential reliability issues (especially with higher power)
More trouble to tune properly
Higher power numbers require fuel system upgrades
Higher weight
Hotter underhood temps
More potential for driveline damage
Tires tend to wear more quickly
Narrow powerband in most cases
Higher fuel consumption

I personally prefer a good NA build...but I'm a weirdo.

[midnightfxgt]

Just to play devil's advocate :)


I'm not sure that thread on NA helped answer any questions. Here's my low down in the difference between NA and FI:

NA Pros:
Better throttle response, especially at low RPM - True, but a properly sized turbo will spool VERY fast!
Better engine compression braking
More linear power delivery
Larger powerband (when done correctly) - Hmmm... Mine is VERY Broad!
More reliable (depending on how far you go with it) - I dont think a 600WHP NA MZ3 would be any more reliable than a boosted one.
Better sounding (subjective) - Whoommmpsshhh ;)
Easier to tune - Fuel maps are Fuel Maps
Less weight
Fuel consumption can remain reasonable (especially with higher compression) - Stay outta boost and so will a turbo car. I can get almost 575/tank on the highway.

NA Cons:
Expensive as sin
Less peak power output
Extreme builds sacrifice off-idle response
Less expertise available to help (fewer guys doing it)

FI Pros:
Way more power potential
Better HP/$ ratio
Bragging rights
BOV (if you think they sound cool, but I'm personally over it)
Readily available parts and technical support (plenty of guys doing it)

FI Cons:
Potential reliability issues (especially with higher power) - See above
More trouble to tune properly - See above
Higher power numbers require fuel system upgrades - Tell that to Jaun who ran 500WHP on stock rail/pump ;)
Higher weight
Hotter underhood temps
More potential for driveline damage - Aftermath of power.. NA will break parts if WHP is the same.
Tires tend to wear more quickly - Subjective to driver :)
Narrow powerband in most cases - See Above
Higher fuel consumption - See above

I personally prefer a good NA build...but I'm a weirdo.

Weirdo..... :p I am biased..... lol

[Default User]

This is going to piss off a lot of members but I'm gonna say it anyway.

More than half - if not 2/3 of the members here are more "cosmetic" tuners...
...angel eyes, HID's, sharkfins and rims. Intakes and exhausts are a must for the sound factor.

Now there is Nothing wrong with that...just don't expect to get a lot of support when you talk about going FI.

I'm planning a motor build - but still debating on going NA or turbo, simply because it is a daily driver - and a proper turbo build means countless visits in and out of shops.
IMO - well worth it!!!

sooooooo tempting

[Hives]

NA for the Mazda 3. The engine cannot take a turbo and run properly. Plus its too costly.

[Fuman]

how much power does the OP want to make anyway

[midnightfxgt]

NA for the Mazda 3. The engine cannot take a turbo and run properly. Plus its too costly.

The engine can take a turbo and run properly.

[Rob23]

The engine can take a turbo and run properly.

yes yes it can, lol, as long as you have a standard. the n/a 2.3 is the same engine as the speed 3 isn't it? but the speed3 has bigger injector and shit, which comes with most turbo kits. its the auto transmision that cant take the turbo.

[Default User]

ps ONE LAST THING I promise If I didnt go the turbo route what are some of the the NA inspired things I can do to my car?

intake, headers, exhaust work
timing, msd, etc (not sure if there are any cams out there)
there's a sponsor with ECU flashing but I suggest you do that last
shave some weight and do a proper suspension tune

not much as compared to a Civic, but as I mentioned before, there isn't a huge demand for power adders for our 3's

[Gen1GT]

Midnight, good points, but you have to remember the inherent differences between an NA build and an FI build.

Throttle response: quick responding turbo does not mean quick responding engine. In a serious NA build, with individual throttle bodies, the throttled volume is so small (volume of air between the throttle plate and the intake valves) that once the butterflies open, it takes almost no time before the air/fuel charge is in the combustion chamber.

With a turbo, when the butterfly plate opens, you have to pull air in through the intact tract (which may include an intercooler and yards of tubing), past the throttle body, through a large intake plenum and down the runners. After combustion, exhaust gases exit and spool up the turbo. Only then, do you start to come on full power.

Throttle response is measured by the difference between when the pedal is pushed to when there is power at crankshaft. It is also measured by when you lift off the throttle compared when power at the crankshaft drops. Another test is the time it takes to come off throttle and back on it again immediately after.

Powerband:
Do you have a dyno chart to show your broad powerband? A good NA engine will have constant torque from 2000 RPM right to 7000 RPM or higher.

Reliability:
The most power you would reasonably want to make from an NA 2.3 street engine would probably be 200 horsepower or so. What makes an NA engine un-reliable is RPM. To make 200 hp from the MZR, you'd probably end up seeing RPM climb to 8000 RPM. RPM is bad for internals, but in a different way than boost. Boost can be bad for internals, as well as the drivetrain.

Tuning:
Fuel maps are fuel maps, but NA engines are less fussy in their requirements to create ideal combustion temperatures at the sacrifice of ideal air/fuel ratios. You will spend more time tuning a turbo setup to prevent it from blowing up, than you will in an naturally aspirated setup. You can run an NA engine a lot leaner than an FI engine.

Fuel consumption:
Running high compression ratios are great for fuel economy (just not good for emissions). Conversely, you tend to run even lower compression in a boosted engine to allow for more positive pressure. Compression ratio is another reason an NA engine is more responsive than a boosted engine. Of course, direct injection changes everything, allowing for higher compression.

Fuel:
Does Juan run stock injectors too?

Driveline damage:
NA engines run high horsepower, medium torque. Torque breaks transmissions, not power. The fact that boosted power comes on strong at a low RPM means the more forces are applied in a shorter period of time, which is what breaks things. NA power builds smoothly from a low RPM, and simply does not have the same force being applied to the rotating components.

[SSmoked]

yes yes it can, lol, as long as you have a standard. the n/a 2.3 is the same engine as the speed 3 isn't it? but the speed3 has bigger injector and shit, which comes with most turbo kits. its the auto transmision that cant take the turbo.

there the same displacment but the speed3 has a Direct ingection motor, its an entirely different ball game.

the the OP check out the thread of mazda3forums, under the forced induction thread about the F2 supercharger. imo supercharging is the way to go, u wont need a load of pluming, and intercoolers unless u stage2. plus the whine of a supercharger pwns the BOV of a turbo.

[midnightfxgt]

I agree with all of your points....

However, in some of your points, you mention 200WHP, and in others you are mentioning seriously high RPM and ITBs. Anyone going for 200WHP and going to the hassle/cost of ITBs and serious internal work is crazy. I would imagine costs over $10K or more... to hit 200WHP? Spend $4-5000 and hit 240WHP safely and efficiently on this motor all day long :)

While the points are correct, they dont all apply to the same seriousness of build... I guess thats my point. I hope that makes sense.. lol!

As for the Dyno, I dont have any of my higher HP graphs scanned (240-250), just the lower runs....

http://i26.tinypic.com/xpphyd.jpg

The Tuning was so bad and erratic... due to a collapsed vac line to the MAP. Never use cheap hoses ppl! :)

-John

[midnightfxgt]

there the same displacment but the speed3 has a Direct ingection motor, its an entirely different ball game.

the the OP check out the thread of mazda3forums, under the forced induction thread about the F2 supercharger. imo supercharging is the way to go, u wont need a load of pluming, and intercoolers unless u stage2. plus the whine of a supercharger pwns the BOV of a turbo.

Sound is preference... but you will hear the BOV when the turboed MZ3 flies by you ;)

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

yes yes it can, lol, as long as you have a standard. the n/a 2.3 is the same engine as the speed 3 isn't it? but the speed3 has bigger injector and shit, which comes with most turbo kits. its the auto transmision that cant take the turbo.

The 2.3 engines in the regular MZ3 and Speed3's are not the same at all...

[Gizzmo_jr]

Bottom end yes, top is not. Direct Injection being the major difference.

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

The internals are strengthened also.

[Gizzmo_jr]

The internals are strengthened also.

yes yes, I was talking in a more broad sense.

[-cj-]

As these cars get older, you'll start seeing more and more people dropping turbos in them. On my previous platform, of all the people that modified the cars for big power, 80% were FI and 20% were NA tunes. The NA tunes are WAAAAAY more expensive for the results you get.

You can run a turbo safely providing you keep yourself in check. Dial up the boost above 8psi and you'll be in a world of hurt. If you get yourself a good controller, you can have the car run at 4psi most of the time and 8 psi when you want to mess around, that should keep it even safer and save you some gas. Providing you keep feeding the car ample fuel, you'll be safe.

You Mazda3 guys are actually very lucky.. You have a normal fuel delivery system. I don't know how much of the MS3 parts fit your cars, but if you can steal the MS3 tranny and axles and mate it up with your cars, you guys have the perfect Mazda3 starting platform. ;) Plus other parts to choose from, such as larger brakes, etc. On my previous platform we stole from other Mazda cars, but for the most part, there wasn't anything to swap and everything had to be hacked together...

[Gen1GT]

I agree with all of your points....

However, in some of your points, you mention 200WHP, and in others you are mentioning seriously high RPM and ITBs. Anyone going for 200WHP and going to the hassle/cost of ITBs and serious internal work is crazy. I would imagine costs over $10K or more... to hit 200WHP? Spend $4-5000 and hit 240WHP safely and efficiently on this motor all day long :)

While the points are correct, they dont all apply to the same seriousness of build... I guess thats my point. I hope that makes sense.. lol!



You're 100% right, and that's the big drawback of NA...cost. It would literally take $10 G's to get 200whp, but could do it with a turbo for 1/2 that or less. I guess if you've ever driven a crazy NA build, then you'd know how much fun it is. (not that huge power isn't fun either, but it's a different kind of fun).

Look at the dyno chart for a stroked BP-ZE with IRTB's, 11.5:1 compression and a header and not much more. The red curve is from a similar build in the Targa Miata. I know 125 lb-ft isn't much compared to what you're used to, but it makes that much from 2000RPM to 6500 RPM.

http://www.targamiata.com/images_lrg/VVT.pdf

[Rob23]

The internals are strengthened also.

i know its built up to take the turbo but the block and pistons are the same arn't they? but the n/a 2.3 is still able to handle a turbo either way.

[midnightfxgt]

On my previous platform we stole from other Mazda cars, but for the most part, there wasn't anything to swap and everything had to be hacked together...

Sooo many parts for those Probes now. When I boosted mine, I was one of the first few in Canada. Now you can grab a cheapo kit off eBay (just for the piping) and go to town. The MegaSquirt and Shadome (sp?) tunes are awesome! :)

Victor had my car for months... I wonder if he still has the fastest 2G KL still?

-John

[midnightfxgt]

Gen1GT - I watched some vids on an all motor Miata last week with ITBs.... wow. Very impressive builds.