Death rattle in '05 2.3L... HELP!

[gnashings]

Hi guys, I didn't even know there was an on line community for mz3 owners! :D

Wish I was here under different circumstances :bang

I desperately NEED help. Bought a used 05 hatch for my wife. She wanted a Civic, but I convinced her to get a Mazda (she fell in love when she drove it - needless to say, NOT your average stereotypical lady driver :D ).
This was in late August '09. The car had 101K on it.
Its barely March of 2010, 126K and my engine is DEAD. It has not been opened up, but I suspected and a couple mechanics confirmed, that at least one con rod bearing is spun (I've heard this sound, never on a car this new, this gently driven...).
The dealer gave a 2yr or 24K power train warranty. As you can see the math says I should just bend over and take it like a big boy....
I called Japan Auto Parts - dealt with them before with OK results. Was told that they will NOT sell me a USED 2.3L because of a known oil starvation issue on the #3 cylinder - they only sell REBUILT ones that have had the oil gal. bored out on that cylinder to prevent what he called a "not if but when" oil starvation leading to failure...
I have never heard of this before, and yes, I did do some research and most people RAVE about the Mz3 in just about every way.
The sticker shock was unpleasant too - they quoted me $2750 for the engine... Cheapest I could find is $2300 from a scrap yard with 113K - thanks, I'll take the $400 for the J.A.P unit... IF I HAVE TO.

Question is, a) IS this a known issue? and b) am I absolutely sentenced to basically shelling out $4000 to get this done (engine plus work)?

I can't do a swap by myself due to living and work arrangements... And we're piss ass broke because the wife is in school (expensive...), I am on disability (60% of usual income) and we spent more than we planned on a NICE, RELIABLE CAR for her :bang

Pleas help - I really appreciate it, and thank you in advance,

Peter.

[aris]

Did you contact the dealer to see what they can do for you since your only over by a 1,000km??


Their is alot of people with alot more km with no issues

[stevenma188]

Ya, sorry to hear about your situation. My car is currently at 175K, and there are lots of people here with 200+K.

How credible are the guys you are buying the rebuilt engine from? I'm not sure I would trust random people boring out an engine. However, if the place is credible, then it's probably worth it to pay the extra $450 for the piece of mind. Personally, I have never heard of the oil issue though.

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

First, I am really sorry to hear about the engine blowing. Never a fun thing to have happen.

Is there an endemic engine issue?
No.

Are there people with the 2.3L that have blown engines and spun bearings?
Yes.

Go to any car forum for any manufacturer, make and model and there will be people with blown engines on newer cars, let alone ones that are 5 years old. It happens.

Any manufactured part, and engines are a very complex manufactured part consisting of lots of other complex manufactured parts, have an expected defect and failure rate in the field. Manufacturers track this data with what is called an ERI (early return index). I don't know what the Mazda engineering/manufacturing metrics are concerning engines, but it is usually well less than 1 failure per thousand units in other industries/segments.

As for cost and engines, I would suggest calling Jimmy at Street Performance for a quote on the engine replacement and labour. Jim has done a few engine swaps, but he was telling me last week that all of them (Speed3's excluded), had been on 2006 models to date.

Anyway, sorry to hear and good luck.

[taz4432]

Hey there...I can be of some help here as I don't know if you looked around the forums or not but I spun a bearing a few weeks ago and I had only bought my car at the end of November/beginning of December '09 and had it for less than 2 1/2 months not even 6k on it (115k total when it went) and kaboom.

I would highly recommend Lecavalier Auto. They are in Quebec but shipping is QUICK! I ordered my engine on a Tuesday night (after shipping hours)...they sent it out Wednesday afternoon and by Thursday afternoon it was at Street Performance for Jimmy to install. The engine (an '08 with 18k), shipping, and a 1 year parts+labour warranty plus taxes came to a total of $2105. Jimmy charges $450 for a swap plus the cost of fluids and will make the best engine from the parts of the 2 engines. Jimmy is spectacular so I'd recommend you go see him as he will take care of you!

Lecavalier (http://www.lecavalier.com/) - For some reason there doesn't seem to be any showing up, but they had like 20 of them when I was looking for mine only a couple of weeks ago and many in the 30-60k range (all approximately the same price as what I paid).

P.S. It's best to find your own engine and have it shipped to Jimmy's as it will save you whatevere fee Jimmy would charge you to do the searching (but talk to him anyways and see what he says). Also, it cost me around $2600 all said and done since I already had the oil and tranny fluid and just needed to pay for coolant in addition to the swap. Dealer wanted $5500 and that was with a 10% discount.

[gnashings]

Go to any car forum for any manufacturer, make and model and there will be people with blown engines on newer cars, let alone ones that are 5 years old. It happens.

Any manufactured part, and engines are a very complex manufactured part consisting of lots of other complex manufactured parts, have an expected defect and failure rate in the field. Manufacturers track this data with what is called an ERI (early return index). I don't know what the Mazda engineering/manufacturing metrics are concerning engines, but it is usually well less than 1 failure per thousand units in other industries/segments.


Of course, I am NOT suggesting that all Mazda 3's are garbage just because mine blew up - on top of what you said above (which is very accurate) we are ALSO dealing with a USED vehicle... They are easy to clean up and make pretty, and the odometer does not tell the whole story. God only knows what happened to the car before I got it. I am fairly experienced with vehicles, have been wrenching on them since I was a teen - but there is always so much that you just can not possibly investigate, even with a thorough inspection. This car looked cherry when I got it, but who knows, right? The only reason I am asking about any stories of failure is that the guy at Japan Auto Parts was so adamant about the fact that these engines have some "congenital" flaw. The place is fairly reputable, at one time - mind you I have been out of the game so to speak for a while - it was the biggest Japanese parts importer in the GTA. That's why I came here to ask if anyone had wind of this, as it seemed just plain odd that I have never heard of it, and that the car has such a stellar reputation IF this was the case.

Anyhow, I thank you so very much for your suggestions about Jimmy, and taz thanks for the heads up about Lecavalier - I will be sure to check them out. I have to say, I was a little scared when some of the sites from the US where showing these motors at $22-2400 US!!!

Also - a big sorry about the forum no-no that I committed. I will be honest, I am a little panicked and just posted a question without looking around too much, which is lazy of me and in poor forum etiquette. I really appreciate you guys being so understanding and helping me out anyway.

Here is the funny part of this whole deal: The car didn't leak. It didn't smoke. The oil was checked less than a week ago. No light came on. The temp gauge did not budge (most of my spun/thrown rods involved some temperature anomalies due to the friction). To add insult to injury, I just got on a big "lets fix everything that is wrong with the car" kick - I got the new tires I was putting off, I got the one light bulb that burnt out, and the I spent the whole day washing and detailing the car.... The same day, I went to WalMart for something - 5 minute drive - and on the way back it pooped itself on me... Yey.

Anyways - thanks again, I really appreciate it!

Peter.

[gnashings]

Is the Mazda 6 engine in any way different than the 2.3 in my car? I have seen them listed separately on many sites, but I wonder if this is due to non-interchangeability or just because "it came out of a 6, we list it as a 6!" ?
Also, are there any model year weirdness type issues that I should be aware of (ie. engines up to a certain year or after a certain year not fitting)?

Thanks again - I guess this Jimmy person will no all that too when I call him tomorrow!:blush:blush

[gnashings]

Oh, and here is the site addy for JAP

http://www.japanautoparts.com/

They've been around for a while, the only reason why I even paid any attention to what was said... weird, eh?

[Donutz]

Wow! I'm sorry to hear about your engine. Yes, as others have noted and Taz can attest, there have been a number of spun bearings reported on a number of mazda forums (even focus forums) where this engine is used. I don't believe this is epidemic but it is a fairly well known issue.

I'm very, very curious about the reported oil starvation of cylinder 3 (actually, I'd like to know if anyone has had this happen in cylinder 4 as well). I'd be interested to know how much oil starvation results from having the balance shaft assembly blocking the bottom of cylinders 3 and part of 4. Further, if the oil system is poorly designed or if the one and only cause might be the balance shaft assembly.

If you're into modifications, in this case for peace of mind not performance, you might want to consider getting an oil pan baffle and balance shaft delete kit (around $100 for parts). The BSD will allow you to increase your oil capacity by 1 qt, mildly improves fuel economy, and opens up the bottom of cylinder 3 and 4 to the oil pan (4 hp gain as well). The oil pan baffle will keep the oil in the bottom of the pan, preventing it from sloshing around. This also helps prevent oil starvation at the oil pickup tube under hard cornering.

It stinks that this has happened, noting your current situation, however, if you are paying out of pocket, and as Tim noted above, there is no better place to go than Street Performance. Jim does the best work, gives the best prices, and is an all around great guy.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

[gnashings]

Wow! I'm sorry to hear about your engine. Yes, as others have noted and Taz can attest, there have been a number of spun bearings reported on a number of mazda forums (even focus forums) where this engine is used. I don't believe this is epidemic but it is a fairly well known issue.

I'm very, very curious about the reported oil starvation of cylinder 3 (actually, I'd like to know if anyone has had this happen in cylinder 4 as well). I'd be interested to know how much oil starvation results from having the balance shaft assembly blocking the bottom of cylinders 3 and part of 4. Further, if the oil system is poorly designed or if the one and only cause might be the balance shaft assembly.

If you're into modifications, in this case for peace of mind not performance, you might want to consider getting an oil pan baffle and balance shaft delete kit (around $100 for parts). The BSD will allow you to increase your oil capacity by 1 qt, mildly improves fuel economy, and opens up the bottom of cylinder 3 and 4 to the oil pan (4 hp gain as well). The oil pan baffle will keep the oil in the bottom of the pan, preventing it from sloshing around. This also helps prevent oil starvation at the oil pickup tube under hard cornering.

It stinks that this has happened, noting your current situation, however, if you are paying out of pocket, and as Tim noted above, there is no better place to go than Street Performance. Jim does the best work, gives the best prices, and is an all around great guy.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

I am LOVING this forum, you guys are a great bunch - usually a "noob" like me gets a bit of a cold shoulder at first, especially if he barges in begging for help! :)

Jason,

I was not aware of this alleged issue until the engine took ill, but doing a couple searches since then, I have been seeing a lot of "spun bearing on #3 cylinder" threads on various US forums - mind you, generally after looking into it they were relating to highly modified or force fed engines under high stress use. This is a car that gets its legs stretched occasionally on the street, but I can tell you for sure it is not stressed by any stretch. I think I will just chalk it up to chance, drill it into the wife to check oil on EVERY fill up (a bit of overkill, but cheaper than this!), and call Jimmy - it seems that no one has a bad thing to say about him! And that's awesome given some of the experiences we have all had in the past.

Jason,

I have a question re the balance shaft delete kit. As far as you know, how badly does it affect the smoothness of the engine? Are there any reliability side effects?(seems like they are actually all positive). Also, would this be something that could be inexpensively done at time of swap? Sorry to be sucha geezer, but the last Mazda engine I really tore into was on a 1986 626Turbo (I loved that car!), and it had non of 'em fancy book lurnin' shiafts and whatnots on it :)

Thanks again!

Peter.

[gnashings]

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the tip on the balance shaft delete - sounds like a really good idea all around. As far as you know there is no reliability issues associated with it? Sounds like its all good - the one thing I never liked about the Mazda 2.3L (although it is an excellent engine) is just how incredibly civilized it is! I like engines that come on cam a little more noticeably, have a little more character. But, since this is my wife's car, and she doesn't seem to care I never gave it a second thought. But it sound like this mod may make it more enjoyable too. Cool, thanks again!

[stevenma188]

I'm still not 100% sold on the BSD mod. Why would they install a balance shaft if there was no need for it? Wouldn't it be silly on the manufactures part? Instead they could have designed it without one and saved money. I still would think it would effect the longevity of your engine. However, I guess there is no way to tell the actual effect since there are so many variables.

[gnashings]

You basically took the thoughts out of my head - I am wondering if the deletion would cause some side effects that may prove detrimental. However, if its a way to cure or prevent oil issues, I am inclined to think that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

[Donutz]

Sorry I forgot to reply to your questions.

You are asking the question for which the great debate has raged on for years. Google 'balance shaft assembly' and you can find a good article on this history of the BS and what its intended purpose is. Essentially the BS counteracts vibrations created by the crank and its purpose is to reduce NVH, we do after all drive cars not trucks; at the same time the BS robs some performance (the main reason why many folks installed the BSD). The fact is the 2.3L engine in our car uses the same block and crank as the Ford Ranger. The Ranger does not have a balance shaft assembly or balance shaft gear on the crank. That said, you will experience increased vibration with the BSD.

Any longevity issues? I don't believe so, and people who run this engine have had the BSD for years without any issues. Further, a number of people who build their own 2.3L engines for FI also install the Ranger crank. Some guys running FI with Ranger cranks are putting 2 to 3 times the power we are NA on this engine, and some of those cars have been on the road for a long time now.

The BS also happens to block the bottom of cylinder 3 (why I ask about the spun bearings and the potential correlation to the balance shaft). During my surfing I've only come across one individual who regretted removing the BS due to vibration (Cabooze on m3f I believe). Otherwise, if you read the epic thread on m3f about the BSD you will see pages of positive feedback.

Cost wise, if Jim is swapping your engine, you will likely get a better price for labour if you install everything at once.

BTW, here's a link to the epic BSD thread with good pics, which should give you an idea as to the enormity of this hunk of metal: http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=44045.0

[gnashings]

Jason,

Thanks so much (again!) for your help and thoughtful responses. Personally, I am a bit of an old school kinda guy, and I think the acronym BS is just about right for a balance shaft lol :) I also think that ideally an individual cylinder should not exceed 500cc (no science there, just seems like smoothest engines end up right around that number). I don't want to start a flame war - please think of this as a statement in the same league as fries are better than mashed and coke is better than pepsi ;)
Here is my take on this issue after reading the materials you have so thoughtfully directed me to:
-unless it knocks my wife's fillings out, I think its acceptable:)
-any longevity issues should not be greater than the longevity issue I have now (ie boat anchor...)
-I just don't want to do a swap like this any time soon, so I think anything that would increase oil capacity and flow would be far more beneficial than buttery smoothness.
My primary reason to consider this mod is avoiding my current predicament in the future, and I am thinking that the lubrication benefits will offset the vibration issues. This is not meant to be a performance build, I think the wife thinks the mazder is plenty fast for her as is, more importantly... its pretty:) Know what I mean? lol
Thanks again - I am off in my continuing search of suitable transplant...

[gnashings]

BTW - can anyone give me Jimmy's cell number? I have been looking but can only find the shop number. Thanks again.

[aris]

STREET PERFORMANCE
7605 Woodbine Ave, Unit #17 & 18
Markham, ON L3R-5V3
905-946-0990

I think that is his info...i got it from

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?17212-Street-Performance&highlight=street+perofmacne

[gnashings]

STREET PERFORMANCE
7605 Woodbine Ave, Unit #17 & 18
Markham, ON L3R-5V3
905-946-0990

I think that is his info...i got it from

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?17212-Street-Performance&highlight=street+perofmacne

Thanks again - I really appreciate it - I wasn't sure if that was the place!

[gnashings]

I know that this is hardly scientific, but after reading more about the BSD, and especially seeing pictures of the abomination (oops, that probably gave me away :) ), I decided that its benefits will outweigh the drawbacks for me.
My question is - I see a lot of them on various US sites (F2 seems to be the most popular now), but does anyone know if ordering from the US is the only (or the best) way of obtaining one? Also, any suggestions for other brands perhaps? Seems like a very simple "device", this kit - can't see how very wrong anyone could get this (then again, never underestimate the ability of people to screw things up I suppose). Thanks in advance for any directions you could give me,

Peter.

[Donutz]

When I have a few minutes I'll look up some other brands for you. FYI, you will wait forever for parts to arrive from F2; that is what I have and it took close to 6 weeks if I recall correctly. You can also order from Protegegarage; these guys have terrible communication, and generally you will not get a response to questions about your order; right before you blow a gasket and cancel your order or submit a paypal dispute, your parts will arrive at your door.

And just a quick tip, when you get the baffle make sure you file down any rough edges before installing it.

***EDIT***
- F2
- Cosworth
- Massive Speed System

I'm sure there are others as well.

[gnashings]

Thanks again Jason - especially for the heads-up about the shipping times, I would hate to get stuck because of it (or have to do it after the swap). I appreciate your helps greatly,

Peter.