Little work debate...

[crystal8484]

Having a little debate here at work...

If you, as an employee were required to sign something, I guess like a document saying you acknowledge errors and that a continued error rate would result in you being terminiated and you hear by forfeit your severance pay as a result of being terminated due to these errors - are you required to sign it immediately or is there a grace period of say 24 hours where you can review the binding contract and decide to sign it or not as it being "legal"

thoughts??

[SilentJay]

You shouldn't have to sign anything immediately, though a reason should be given - ie. I want to take this document to my lawyer before i sign and acknowledge it's contents.

[cwp_sedan]

WTF!? I would be pissed if that were my company.

I would definitely ask to think about it, and during that time find out the legality of it. What are the consequences of you not signing it right away?

[crystal8484]

You shouldn't have to sign anything immediately, though a reason should be given - ie. I want to take this document to my lawyer before i sign and acknowledge it's contents.

That's what I say too.

[S.F.W.]

Paging JonJon72, he is in HR, he should be able to advise.
My thoughts..no chance I sign anything like that, waving my right to severance pay, without having a lawyer review.

[SilentJay]

^^ lol - Blackberry spell check kicked in (hour/hr). Yeah, I was "pressured" to sign a similar document way back when I was in highschool, with futureshop. Because I wasn't lying enough to sell extended warranty on items that didn't need it, despite being top salesperson in that area, I was given a similar ultimatum - I told him where to go, and that my lawyer will be contacting the district manager shortly.

[mazdaskit]

my job did that for all of us a manual and we had a weekend to overview it all staying the new rules and crap

[towelsnap]

I wouldn't sign it... it's like saying your volen-told to quit and not get the two weeks pacakge! I wouldn't for sure see a lawyer and have them look at it. That's not cool at all crystal. I had something similar to this where the employer was wrong.. didn't sign it and grieved it! Overall something just doesn't seem right... if it's the first time .... written caution based on the nature of the complaint. Should be three stricks your out (most spots). But if this has happened before.... they can't just make you waive your 2 weeks ... the only benefit of this would be on your ROE it doesn't look bad that you left vs... your fired.

[froggy]

Paging JonJon72, he is in HOUR, he should be able to advise.
My thoughts..no chance I sign anything like that, waving my right to severance pay, without having a lawyer review.

You are not allowed to waive severence pay, no matter what document you sign, just the same way that you cannot waive your right to overtime. These are just crooked companies trying to cheat you out of what's rightfully yours. This just came up at my girlfriends work with one of the workers their, they got rid of her and tried not to pay her here severence by saying she didn't finish the probabtion period. Ontario Labour laws say that workers are entitled to their severence pay regardless of "probation" period as long as they were full time, and that they severence must be paid according to regular pay schedules.

[crystal8484]

I wouldn't sign it... it's like saying your volen-told to quit and not get the two weeks pacakge! I wouldn't for sure see a lawyer and have them look at it. That's not cool at all crystal. I had something similar to this where the employer was wrong.. didn't sign it and grieved it! Overall something just doesn't seem right... if it's the first time .... written caution based on the nature of the complaint. Should be three stricks your out (most spots). But if this has happened before.... they can't just make you wave your 2 weeks ... the only benefit of this would be on your ROE it doesn't look bad that you left vs... your fired.

That's what it is. 3 strike policy. They basically just threw it in our faces and expected the way things were running (which have been HORRIBLE) the past 1 year due to upper management and expect everyone to just switch on a dime. I have yet to sign anything, but a few co-workers have and they were the ones who told me your apparently have to give up your severence - this is on the 2nd strike I believe. the 3rd strike is you're let go because as they've actually said "a monkey could do this job..."

I work for a great company huh?

[SilentJay]

Band together and unionize the workplace. They'd have to deal with a union leader then... That'll show them!

[Noisy Crow]

What a lovely document!

How bad do you need that particular job? If you refuse to sign, they may let you go. Of course they would have to give you severance pay :)

Some info etc here:

http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/severance.php

[towelsnap]

That sucks is it unionized or no? Work in Kingston.. we are hiring like crazy for hospital staff 19.50-25.00 start pay

I use to work for a call center and it was lame like that..... signed that shit.... took me 2 years to get fired though lol and they said a monkey can do it..... all uneducated people as managers .... fannnnnnntastic.

[crystal8484]

it's a bank job, not unionized, never will be!! hahaha
I have other plans in motion, just takes a long time for this career to take off. lots of training and testing and determination. I just feel bad for the people who have already signed this sheet. Not sure they really knew what their options were.

[BoostieMonster]

That's crappy to hear that companies pull this crap , you should have Trogdor the Burninator pay your Boss a little visit tonight!!!

[Donutz]

Don't even whisper "union" in a bank. That could quickly spell the end of your entire dept... Banks, like McDonalds, are capable of shutting down a move to unionize very quickly.

I've worked in a large FI for over 10 years, both as staff and management, so I see this from a few angles. The following comments are based on my experience (I preface the following with this comment as it would seem I'm being a d!ck when you read on, but I am not).

I would have to ask 'why would someone not sign'? I would agree that the part about severance pay doesn't seem appropriate (or legal), but with respect to the accuracy / error rate, this type of letter is fairly common. I've signed them in the past. So my question about why someone wouldn't sign, there are only a few reasons; a) one has a high error rate or is disgruntled; b) mob mentality (no one wants to sign so why would I? The instigators of mob mentality usually fall under the aforementioned 'a'.); c) the request to sign the letter seems offensive. If you don't fall into these categories you likely have a high accuracy rate and are not offended; if this is the case you have nothing to worry about so why not sign? Also, in a large corporation you have to ask yourself what your aspirations are; is this a job or career?

Wearing my employee hat:
- I sign because I have a high accuracy rate so I have nothing to fear.
- I sign knowing I don't have a high accuracy rate. Given this is a bank, I assume there is a performance based culture in which an obligation to provide training is engrained. I fall back on this if I can't improve my accuracy.
- I refuse to sign because my accuracy is not good / I'm offended by the letter. This creates a bad relationship between me and the organization (likely this is already the case if my accuracy is not good).

My manager hat:
- I ask everyone to sign in an attempt to get to someone specific or a specific group of people, knowing this is hidden under the ambiguity of asking everyone to sign.
- If you are a temp with low accuracy you're fired, letter or not.
- If you are FT/PT (and I'm a real bastage) you're fired (based on how the OP described the letter).

My corporate hat:
- I have someone or a group of people in my organization responsible for a high error rate. This person (people) is (are) impacting A) my bottom line; B) my client experience; C) morale.

How do I address this? Root cause analysis. What is causing the issues? Employee's; complex processes; lack of process controls; systems; etc.

For argument sake the root cause is employees:
- do I outsource the entire dept?
- do I shake up the team and scare everyone by firing the manager?
- do I provide everyone with training?
- if I provide training people who cannot improve accuracy go on performance assessment / improvement plan. This plan lays out the artifacts (ones errors and the impacts), the expectations (improve by x error %, etc), and the consequence of failing the improvement plan (termination).

I note the latter because it seems based on OP there might be a witch hunt going on. The honest approach on the part of management is to simply take the 'problem' people aside and apply the last bullet point.

My 0.02. I hope no one is offended! Oh, and to answer the question, after all of this, I would sign (and it seems I am alone!).

[Default User]

I would sign...and start a new job hunt

take 10 coworkers to an employment agency on your lunchbreak and have everyone quit AT THE SAME TIME.
the WHOLE company call in sick (a personal day) on the busiest day of the week
start ordering a bunch of red swingline staplers
...basically anything mischievous to piss off upper management

[KenYork]

Having a little debate here at work...

If you, as an employee were required to sign something, I guess like a document saying you acknowledge errors and that a continued error rate would result in you being terminiated and you hear by forfeit your severance pay as a result of being terminated due to these errors - are you required to sign it immediately or is there a grace period of say 24 hours where you can review the binding contract and decide to sign it or not as it being "legal"

thoughts??

I don't see why there should be any immediate or 24hr time frame. You have a right for more information, you can ask for more time. You may ask for a meeting to clarify and understand of the termination process with someone that knows more about it before signing. Otherwise, I don't see a problem. It's only forfeiting your severance due to certain criteria.

[PCLoadLetter]

I would sign...and start a new job hunt

take 10 coworkers to an employment agency on your lunchbreak and have everyone quit AT THE SAME TIME.
the WHOLE company call in sick (a personal day) on the busiest day of the week
start ordering a bunch of red swingline staplers
...basically anything mischievous to piss off upper management
Is there something wrong with red swingline staplers?

[Skippy]

I don't see why there should be any immediate or 24hr time frame. You have a right for more information, you can ask for more time. You may ask for a meeting to clarify and understand of the termination process with someone that knows more about it before signing. Otherwise, I don't see a problem. It's only forfeiting your severance due to certain criteria.

I'm pretty sure your not allowed to forfeit your severance by law, as someone said above I think.

[gretzky]

I'm pretty sure your not allowed to forfeit your severance by law, as someone said above I think.

+1

[Noisy Crow]

Thinking about this.... they are basically trying to get you to agree on their definition of being fired for just cause.

Very good article on the situation:

http://www.wrongfullydismissed.com/Just_Cause.html

[m_bisson]

it's not just about your job, nobody ANYWHERE for ANY reason can force you to sign a paper saying you "waive your rights to......". The government protects against that.

Here's an example I dealt with recently: My prof likes to use turnitin.com to check our papers for plagiarism. In order for us (the student) to submit our work we need to "waive our rights" to our own written material. The legal disclaimer even states that turnitin.com may use our work in the future and is allowed to take any ideas/thoughts and distribute them as their own. On top of that, we also waive our right to sue for copyright infringement.
Legally, my prof cannot MAKE us use that website. He's a lazy ****. I went to the head of the department and got nowhere, so I went to the dean of the university and was told that I shouldn't have paid for the course if I didn't want to use turninit.com. The prof never had it written in the course outline that the website was to be used, he requested it vocally during one of our classes. Told that to the dean and he said "oh" and I was on my way, submitting my paper in person with a note attached saying that if I found my work on turnitin.com I would be taking legal action against my teacher. He read it in front of me, graded it, and handed it back. B+. Not bad eh? :)

[Cardinal Fang]

That's what it is. 3 strike policy. They basically just threw it in our faces and expected the way things were running (which have been HORRIBLE) the past 1 year due to upper management and expect everyone to just switch on a dime. I have yet to sign anything, but a few co-workers have and they were the ones who told me your apparently have to give up your severence - this is on the 2nd strike I believe. the 3rd strike is you're let go because as they've actually said "a monkey could do this job..."



Well since upper management thinks a bunch of monkeys can do then they be well qualified themselves to fit the spot.

[Twinbros]

As an employee, you have the right to ask and question this document. I would personally take this up with HR in your organization and ask for their opinion.



Having a little debate here at work...

If you, as an employee were required to sign something, I guess like a document saying you acknowledge errors and that a continued error rate would result in you being terminiated and you hear by forfeit your severance pay as a result of being terminated due to these errors - are you required to sign it immediately or is there a grace period of say 24 hours where you can review the binding contract and decide to sign it or not as it being "legal"

thoughts??

[KenYork]

Yes, nobody can force you, but they can make your life miserable so you quit. Will you still want to work there?