Next Mazdaspeed 3 Could Go Diesel

[SpeedBaby]

Taken from Car and Driver:


A pretty big-deal little tidbit slipped out during the recent Mazda technology forum we attended: the company is tinkering with the idea of a diesel powertrain for the next-gen Mazdaspeed 3. And this came straight from Robert Davis, Mazda USA senior VP of product development, who is one of the key guys making these decisions for the U.S. market.

He alleviated some of our skepticism with a few details. First, he says that the younger crowd that is buying the Speed 3 doesn’t have a negative perception of diesels. They likely weren’t around, or were too young to remember the dark days in the 1970s and ‘80s, when diesels got their bad reputation for stinking and smoking. When someone says “diesel” to these people, they instead think of modern and very clean Audi/VWs, BMWs, and Mercedes.

Davis also promised that, even if the Speed 3 did get a diesel powertrain, “performance wouldn’t be degraded,” and that “it’s going to take more than a 190-hp version of the diesel to make that happen” (referring to the fact that a Speedified diesel would have a state of tune significantly higher than the new, 2.2-liter Sky diesel that we drove at the event). Of course, diesels inherently make a ton of torque, something the torque-steering Speed 3 doesn’t really need any more of. Plus, we like the rorty sound of the current, heavily boosted four-cylinder, something that would certainly be lost, or at least watered-down, with a diesel.

We’re still not convinced. Consider the best example of a performance diesel that’s sold in the U.S. today, the BMW 335d. It makes so much torque (425 lb-ft) that it’s largely unusable, the diesel model isn’t nearly as quick as the 335i, and the fuel-economy benefit of the diesel is, of course, eroded when pumping up the power.


But nothing’s been decided yet. And Mazda officials also confirmed that there’s already work being done to add a turbocharger to the Sky gasoline engine for a future high-powered application, such as a Speed variant.

[gotak]

I wouldn't give C&D tastes much weight in this. I think the 335d is a great car and if I had the money for one I'd have gotten it even though it was auto only. Americans dislike diesel even when they should be using one. That's why you have giant SUVs and pickups that still runs on gasoline even though a diesel makes much more sense for them.

The 2.3 turbo already makes too much torque for the FWD only speed 3 and they take care of that with some electronics. The diesel can be done the same. SEAT races 280 hp diesel FWD cars in WTCC and they won in 2008 and 2009. I for one would love to see more diesel sport cars in NA. Cause the fuel economy will be good if you choose to drive sensibly but you can still have some fun. And if you think about isn't that sort of what the speed 3 is currently? You get the fuel economy based on your driving style?

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

Makes no sense at all if they keep the Speed3 as a FWD version. Just can't see it happening.

[mleblond]

Lol, the speed 3 already "stinks and smokes" like a diesel...

either way time to move to a different car if the new generation can't keep up.

[Unoriginalusername]

Lol, the speed 3 already "stinks and smokes" like a diesel...

either way time to move to a different car if the new generation can't keep up.

I wonder how the sales of the restyled one are compared to the last generation, and agreed unless things progress beyond a new nose, wider tires and an increased curb weight the next generation will be behind the times. I think the focus rs current spec should be the next ms3 as it is going away in the UK in favour of a different package leaving an opportunity to rebrand the current 2.5 powertrain in the RS to the MPS platform.

[BlK98Cx]

I wonder how the sales of the restyled one are compared to the last generation, and agreed unless things progress beyond a new nose, wider tires and an increased curb weight the next generation will be behind the times. I think the focus rs current spec should be the next ms3 as it is going away in the UK in favour of a different package leaving an opportunity to rebrand the current 2.5 powertrain in the RS to the MPS platform.

+ 10000000 ..... that will be a fast speed 3 if this is the case!!!!

[froggy]

I wonder how the sales of the restyled one are compared to the last generation, and agreed unless things progress beyond a new nose, wider tires and an increased curb weight the next generation will be behind the times. I think the focus rs current spec should be the next ms3 as it is going away in the UK in favour of a different package leaving an opportunity to rebrand the current 2.5 powertrain in the RS to the MPS platform.

Didn't ford and Mazda part ways already a year or so back? Or do they still share technology?

[Unoriginalusername]

Didn't ford and Mazda part ways already a year or so back? Or do they still share technology?


Ford, (F/NYSE) first took a stake in Mazda in 1979 and raised it to a controlling interest of 33.4% in 1996. It will remain Mazda’s top shareholder at 13% after selling the shares to Mazda and to some Mazda business partners.

Mazda plans to buy back 6.87% of its own shares from Ford for up to 17.9 billion yen (US$185-million), keeping them as treasury stock, it said. More than 20 undisclosed Mazda business partners will buy the remaining shares Ford is selling, Mazda said.



Read more: http://www.financialpost.com/Ford+sells+stake+Mazda+raise+cash/969287/story.html#ixzz0yGxDzBZM

[homieG]

interesting. i really think they need to make the next gen MS3 AWD!! the sales will double for sure if they do this and not increase the price by a ridiculous amount!

[Unoriginalusername]

interesting. i really think they need to make the next gen MS3 AWD!! the sales will double for sure if they do this and not increase the price by a ridiculous amount!

ask vw how the last r32 worked out for them once they made it awd, increased the price and couldn't offer performance equal too or better than an STI or EVO ... there will always be a cheap speed market, i say a better FWD car makes the most business sense.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

ask vw how the last r32 worked out for them once they made it awd, increased the price and couldn't offer performance equal too or better than an STI or EVO ... there will always be a cheap speed market, i say a better FWD car makes the most business sense.

the mkv R32's biggest problem, aside from its price, was its VR6 engine. you could buy the cheaper GTI and get any of the APR/GIAC/Unitronic/Revo Stage 1 tunes for $500-600 and it would be putting out more power and torque than the R32.

[Unoriginalusername]

the mkv R32's biggest problem, aside from its price, was its VR6 engine. you could buy the cheaper GTI and get any of the APR/GIAC/Unitronic/Revo Stage 1 tunes for $500-600 and it would be putting out more power and torque than the R32.

According to fifth gear/top gear the new GTI-R suffers the same fate.... point is unless the MS3 is going to dominate the price/performance category above and beyond what an EVO/STI would do there is no point leaving the FWD category where it is top of the class. STI's and EVO's sell impreza's and lancers because of previous wrc involvement, outside a rally program an awd ms3 would do little to help the company sell more cars and make more money doing than what they would now

[TheMAN]

this all sounds like very far fetched rumors to me.... the 3 already exists in diesel form, just not sold here... it has plenty of go as it is... expecting a mazdaspeed version is asking too much!
I'll be happy enough when mazda brings any diesel over here..... even if its in a "lowly" 2

[McGuyver_3]

i say do a rear wheel conversion and bring in the diesel or bring over the japanese all wheel drive version :D

[Pokey]

this all sounds like very far fetched rumors to me.... the 3 already exists in diesel form, just not sold here... it has plenty of go as it is... expecting a mazdaspeed version is asking too much!
I'll be happy enough when mazda brings any diesel over here..... even if its in a "lowly" 2

Agreed - until then all we can choose from is VW or VW. (Mercedes or BMW are a bit (WAY) out of my price range)

[3DEE]

If they can just make a new grille without the smile I'd be happy with that. But who knows in 5 years what's gonna happen. I don't think they're selling that well overall. I only saw a handful on the streets. Dealer lots are still full of them and 2011 models are here. They might even skip a year. If this continues they will discontinue them completely. Unfortunately.

[froggy]

Agreed - until then all we can choose from is VW or VW. (Mercedes or BMW are a bit (WAY) out of my price range)

Well suzuki is playing with the idea of bringing over the sx4, and kazashi in diesel also. So you might have another choice there too

[Zoom Zoom Boy]

interesting. i really think they need to make the next gen MS3 AWD!! the sales will double for sure if they do this and not increase the price by a ridiculous amount!

AWD Mazdaspeed6. RIP.
Nuff said.

I agree with UOU on this one. You make the MS3 AWD and the price will go up and then you're benchmarked against the Evo and STi. Mazda has always been adamant that is not the market segment they want the MS3 to be in and that those cars are not the direct competition of the MS3. They used the GTi, SiR and other FWD cars as the benchmark.

[froggy]

AWD Mazdaspeed6. RIP.
Nuff said.

I agree with UOU on this one. You make the MS3 AWD and the price will go up and then you're benchmarked against the Evo and STi. Mazda has always been adamant that is not the market segment they want the MS3 to be in and that those cars are not the direct competition of the MS3. They used the GTi, SiR and other FWD cars as the benchmark.

The only way they could do something like that and be even remotely finacially viable is if the took the focus wrc and just re sheetmetalled it to look like an MS3. But mazda has already said that they don't want to go there so well they aren't

[homieG]

it seriously does not cost THAT much to make a car into an AWD. price diff would probably be a couple grand. i would rather pay a couple grand more to get a boosted car in AWD. i do udnerstand they don't want to compete with sti's and evo's; but it would be first in class to have AWD and i think sales would sky rocket if they did this. AWD in a country like canada is a very easy sell. Performance hatch with AWD....i know a lot of us here would jump on it!

[MajesticBlueNTO]

it seriously does not cost THAT much to make a car into an AWD. price diff would probably be a couple grand. i would rather pay a couple grand more to get a boosted car in AWD. i do udnerstand they don't want to compete with sti's and evo's; but it would be first in class to have AWD and i think sales would sky rocket if they did this. AWD in a country like canada is a very easy sell. Performance hatch with AWD....i know a lot of us here would jump on it!

bean counters have more to say than the enthusiasts within a company. it may not cost much more to make a car in AWD but when the STI and EVO go for almost $50k OTR here in Canada, the bean counters will most likely ask for a price close to their competition to make the most profit. they did it with the MS6 which was close in price to its closest competition, the Legacy GT, and we all know how that turned out.

the problem with going AWD in the sport compact category though is perception. Subaru and Mitsu are relying on the pedigree they've built when then competed in WRC. Their AWD (along with Ford's Focus RS WRC) are full-time AWD; which is also another marketing point for them as Mazda's AWD is 100% FWD until conditions call for torque transfer to the rear and, in that case, it will only transfer 50% at most.

Putting Mazda's version of AWD into a MS3 doesn't buy it much because it will be FWD 99% of the time on the street...it's added weight and cost that doesn't make sense.

The MS3, with a similarly skilled drivers, will hang neck and neck around the track with the STI and EVO. In winter, a set of good winter tires will get you around no problem in the MS3. There is no need to bump up the price with AWD... Mazda is already in the top 3 in FWD performance with the MS3.

[Unoriginalusername]

bean counters have more to say than the enthusiasts within a company. it may not cost much more to make a car in AWD but when the STI and EVO go for almost $50k OTR here in Canada, the bean counters will most likely ask for a price close to their competition to make the most profit. they did it with the MS6 which was close in price to its closest competition, the Legacy GT, and we all know how that turned out.

the problem with going AWD in the sport compact category though is perception. Subaru and Mitsu are relying on the pedigree they've built when then competed in WRC. Their AWD (along with Ford's Focus RS WRC) are full-time AWD; which is also another marketing point for them as Mazda's AWD is 100% FWD until conditions call for torque transfer to the rear and, in that case, it will only transfer 50% at most.

Putting Mazda's version of AWD into a MS3 doesn't buy it much because it will be FWD 99% of the time on the street...it's added weight and cost that doesn't make sense.

The MS3, with a similarly skilled drivers, will hang neck and neck around the track with the STI and EVO. In winter, a set of good winter tires will get you around no problem in the MS3. There is no need to bump up the price with AWD... Mazda is already in the top 3 in FWD performance with the MS3.

300hp AWD cars were cool 6 years ago... unless its a GTR the price performance doesn't make sense, I agree that with a few small tweaks based on the Ford Focus RS that the FWD is just as competitive as the current STI/EVO for a lot less money. The GTI-R and STI will have the unruly and refined awd 270hp+ AWD hatchback market covered, make the ms3 more affordable like the 25-27k price points of the Colbalt SS, Caliber SRT4 and keep improving the overall package and it will stay a market leader vs. being an also ran in a category that doesn't make sense for mazda