PDA

View Full Version : Tracking 16's?



Donutz
08-31-2010, 08:25 PM
Anyone track 16 x 8's? I'm wondering how they handle. I'm looking for a track setup, preferably in 17 x 8, but I stumbled across some fd rims for $250 US. Obviously the price is decent, but I'm not sure if they'll suit my driving style.

condor888000
08-31-2010, 08:32 PM
Size of wheel matters much less than what tire you choose to match with it. FD's are fairly light and come with a great offset for this car. In fact, they're what I use for autocross/lapping. The only issue I have is that you won't be able to find quality used tires. Tons of guys running 15's, tons running 17's, almost none on 16's.

What sort of tire were you thinking? Street? R?

Donutz
08-31-2010, 10:08 PM
R comp. I'm still looking into which ones though. Likely I'll start with lightly used tires so I can afford to switch them up until I find the ones that suit my style.

Donutz
08-31-2010, 10:10 PM
double post.

BMWWW
09-01-2010, 12:09 AM
16's are almost always going to be more pocket friendly. Granted, they do something approaching witchcraft with gearing (not positive, not negative, I can't explain it well--but google can), if you're ever going to purchase tires, they'll be cheaper.

They are quite a bit harder to find tires for if looking for used. But they are out there, and usually either mid-end of the season is when you'll find them a bit more often. Do plan ahead, and have an emergency stash of cash when the gems pop up.

I for one, ended up swapping for a set of 17x8's because of greater availability (though I was never without a set of tires)--and the week after that, was when MANY sets came to me, and not the other way around. (of course that's what will happen--the tire gods wouldn't have it any other way)

BMWWW
09-01-2010, 12:20 AM
PS. "find a tire that suits my style"...

I would advise you to lose that mindset. Unless you're a closet-Lewis Hamilton, your driving style is likely not optimal. I'd recommend getting the best tire that you can afford (used or otherwise) and adapt to IT. Different levels of tires require/demand a different driving style. (read: streets, r-comps, slicks). Depending on which type, your 'style' will need to adapt for the quickest time.

Tires are engineered with many thousands of hours of lab and real world tests--if it doesn't suit your style after immediate possession, it may fall into your style after breaking in, shaving, tire pressure adjustments. If anything, you should be searching for the tire that suits your class, vehicle type, length of duty, and series.

Its late, but I can't wrap my head around what type of styles that exists for a heavy fwd car that can't be taken care of in the setup; care to elaborate?

condor888000
09-01-2010, 01:22 AM
225/50R16 is the most common 16" size, and they are basically identical to stock size, thus no gearing change. Now, if you were to go to 225/45R16 you'd see slightly shorter gearing, but not a big difference.

I wouldn't suggest R's right away. The extra grip that is there will just mask your mistakes, you'll be using it as a bit of a crutch. That's been my experience this year. Next season I'll either return to street tires, or switch cars. R's just aren't really worth it, the current crop of premium street tires are just that good.

Honestly, I'd suggest starting with either the Star Spec, the Kumho XS, or the Hankook RS-3. I had a set of Star Spec's last year and I regret selling them. They were predictable, and provided constant grip right to the limit. Right before they reached the limit they talked to you and let you know what's going on. I've driven on the RS-3 and noticed very similar characteristics, just with what felt like more overall grip. The Kumho XS are also great.

The Toyo R888's I ran at the start of this year were ok...as long as it was above 20*C. Any colder and they are just NOT happy, take forever to warm up and just didn't grip well. Now, on a warm day they're awesome, but that's not what you always get. A street tire is happy no matter what, they just get happier as it gets warmer(to a point).

And the biggest problem with an R, they don't talk. They don't communicate the same way a street does. And that's incredibly frustrating. The only way to find the limit it to surpass it, which isn't a great idea most of the time.

Donutz
09-01-2010, 12:44 PM
BMWWW, you make a good point; what I would vaguely describe as 'my style' is more accurately stated as 'tires that I can most easily adapt to'; easily being key. I'm not looking for tires to be the resolution to handling issues, rather, compliment handling and versatile enough that I can dial in along with other suspension settings. I'm familiar with basic suspension setup and the affects on tires and tire tuning. I am no expert (not even a little bit), and I don't have anywhere close to the amount of experience that you guys have. I don't want to seem like a smart @ss with my comments; I really do appreciate your feedback.

Condor, thanks for the tips about r-comps vs street tires. I've found that my 615's don't make any noise near, at, or past the limit. I've had my eye on the star specs since last summer as my next street tire, but I'm really interested in r comps. I'll be running as many days as possible this year on my 615's before the season ends in an effort to gain as much experience as I can before getting r-comps. I'm also trying to roast my 615's so my wife will let me get new street tires. I hope she isn't reading this!

I'm still leaning towards 17 x 8. Are you running 50 or 45 series on the 16's?

condor888000
09-01-2010, 05:36 PM
I'm running 225/50R16. 225/45R16 is only available in the R888 and the Yokohama A048's now, there used to be several street tires in that size, but they're all switched to 225/50. I haven't driven on the Yoko's, but the Toyo's really need a stupid amount of heat to work properly. I've heard the old RA-1's are much better, but they're hard to find.

Honestly, the 615 is old and not longer near the top of the pile of street tires. If you tried a top line current street you'd be impressed. They're simply awesome, and leave the 615's far behind. Like I said, if I have the 3 next year I will be on street tires(most likely RS-3's). The R888's are good, but not that much better than streets, especially when you're just learning.

Honestly, the only real reason to go to 17's is for the look. FD's will be cheaper than any set of 17x8's you find. By a significant margin. And you'll save some money on the tires. Not a lot, but some. I don't really regret my FD's, they've been awesome for me.

Donutz
09-01-2010, 06:02 PM
Yeah, I did not do my homework when I invested in the 615's. My knowledge of tires was a couple years outdated when I bought them.

This is likely something I'd have to experiment with myself, but how do you find the tire deflection in the 50 series vs a 45 series?

condor888000
09-01-2010, 06:44 PM
I've never driven the same tire in both sizes so I can't really answer that accurately.

However, I strongly suspect that it would take a driver with tons of experience to be able to tell the difference. It's a minuscule difference in sidewall size.

BMWWW
09-02-2010, 02:01 AM
On the admitedly heavier 6, I've driven on shitty cooper 50-series, 45-series SO-3's, and 40-series RA1's. Honestly a very difficult comparison, as it moves from crap, to creame. That said, weight savings is one of the biggest and most apparent to me.

In theory, (and I would love to say), that the shorter the tirewall, the more responsive it is; though my experience is completely overwhelmed by the increase of performance in tire compound. But again, if in the same tire dimension/brand/model, with only the sidewall being the differing factor, I personally (nowhere near pro) feel that I would notice the weight savings moreso than 'more-response'--but will always feel like I've made a step up in performance with a shorter sidewall.

Will this be a dedicated track setup, or a split duty with daily driving? Though both sizes aren't that different, I'd echo Connor and suggest the 45 given the choice--based on theory, and the fact that a 45 series tire ain't too-too bad. (Secretly, I'd opt for the 50 series since only 1% of the current driving is 'spirited')

And biggest question: big track or autox. Be realistic with yourself-- both will have a 'better' tire for the job.

And some food for thought:
- I picked up a set of almost done SO-3's for $125
- Picked up a set of 2-lined 235/40/17 RA1's for $100.

Deals are to be had--keep your eyes peeled, and I pray that you have a dedicated set of rims to mount these bad boys, and take full advantage of their 'prime' gripping stages of their life.

Donutz
09-02-2010, 08:45 AM
This is a dedicated track set up.

I'm trying to get as much seat time as possible, wherever I can this year (read not on the street!). I've been looking into options for competition formats, and I'll decide over the winter what I'll run next year. Given my limited experience, I plan on using next season for experimenting with additional performance driving schools, autox, lapping days, and time attack. From this I look to figure out what I like best, and will dedicate more time and focus to that specific discipline.

taz4432
09-02-2010, 02:53 PM
I won't comment much on what's been discussed already but my current setup is 17*7.5 Rota Subzeros (White) which weigh in at around 17lb/rim. Tires are relatively easy to find and I'm running a set of Hankook Ventus Z214 with the C51 Compound (Medium as opposed to C71 - Soft or for certain sizes, C91 - Very Soft). If you're planning on doing more events like autocross/time attack/etc. where you wont' have time to warm up the tires, a C71 compound (of these tires) would be the way to go whereas for someone like myself who does lapping/track days, a C51 compound makes more sense because I have time to get them up to temp.

A good thing about the Z214 is how easy it is to switch the tires between corners - "Ventus Z214 tires feature directional rotation arrows branded onto their sidewalls to identify correct mounting rotation that will enhance tread splice integrity and durability. Following the rotation arrows, the use of a symmetric tread design allows Ventus Z214 tires to be mounted on either side of the car (and later be remounted inside out to further extend their life)."

Keep in mind, going hard on these tires in the rain is foolhardy at best.

This link (hopefully it'll work) should give you an idea of what's out there and the associated cost. Also, if you're going with the more competition/track-style tires, quite a few of the brands/styles will need shaving for anything other than wet applications.

TireRack 225/45/17 Competition/Track Tire List (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?skipOver=true&width=225%2F&ratio=45&diameter=17&x=19&y=4)




Edit: If I didn't put so many KMs on my car, I'd have Star Specs as my regular tires/wet track tires and then a set of track tires similar to the Z214s for dry track conditions.

condor888000
09-02-2010, 05:06 PM
Problem with going to the Z214, the Kumho V710, the BF R1 or any Hoosier is that they are damn near useless in the rain. If you want to go as fast as you possibly can in competition they're great. But if you want to work on your driving they're not the best choices. They are what I was really talking about when I said R's can provide some much grip they get used as a crutch. You don't have to be perfect because the tire has so much grip. If you were on a lesser tire you have to get your lines right, and in order to do that you really have to improve as a driver.

If you want an R I suggest either the Toyo R888 or the Yokohama A048. There's a trick to getting a 40% discount on the R888's, sign up for Team Toyo. (http://www.teamtoyo.ca) 40% discount on R888 and R1R. Both give you the 225/45R16 option if you want to shorten your gearing a tad, and both also give a 225/50R16 option if you want to keep your OD the same as stock. These tires need to be hot to work, but also have *some* wet weather capability, they're not slicks in other words.

I still suggest a street though. The lower level of grip will make you a better driver by forcing you to find the best lines. Once you can do that you'll be able to properly use the grip available in an R.

BMWWW
09-03-2010, 12:41 PM
When you're ready for the real R's, don't worry about not getting them to heat for autox. By your 2nd or 3rd run, they'll be plenty sticky (even if not optimal), and far surpass the capabilities of a street tire.

But as almost all the autox guys will suggest, you definitely want to start on streets, learn the craft, accustom yourself to where/how/why/what you want the car to feel/be setup/is fastest, have a few spins and over-cooked corners, then move to R's. Flat-spotting an R is not fun, and definitely not friendly on the wallet.

To be frank, that last point should be more than enough of a deterrent in jumping to an R. At $200+ a tire (less with Toyo discount), flat-spotting a rubber ain't a momentous event.

Donutz
09-05-2010, 11:50 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys. I picked these up today:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/sagexp/utf-8BSU1HMDA1MDkuanBn.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/sagexp/utf-8BL01lZGlhIENhcmQvQmxhY2tCZXJyeS9waWN0dXJlcy9JTUcw MDUxMC5qcGc.jpg

I had my heart set on 17's, but for the price I don't think I made a bad decision. I won't be using them this year though. The rims will be going for curb rash repair and pc'ing in the off season, and I still need to find some tires.

Azi
09-09-2010, 11:30 PM
I am going to have to agree with condor here. Start off with a really good street tire. And then move on from there. For just track the R888 are a good tire. Then need to heat up, but once they are warm, they performed great (for me). But when I jumped from streets to R's, it still took me 1/2 season to learn the R's. Get the kumho xs and you will be happy.