Jan 31: Tuning Day w/ Christian & Brian @ APH

[Fobio]

So today, Christian and Brian had a one-on-one @ APH and my car was asked for to demo some of the new features of ATR and boost-based tuning (vs load based tuning). It was going to be just a morning thing, but I couldn't let this rare opportunity come to past with just myself getting looked over. Christian agreed to stay and look over a couple more cars....I'll let these guys speak for themselves.

Personally, I was looking for a smoother boost curve and perhaps a bit more area under the curve. I am happy with my results on a boost based map. I now have to make decisions about the parts I have on for even smoother boost control, but I'll mess with it for a bit to see if I can get my current setup to behave. Anyway, pictures speak a thousand words and they will soon follow...

There's plenty to share about current developments for the MS3 platform, and the 2010+ in particular. There's a matter of trickle down effect that will benefit all the Gen 1 guys too. Without going into details, the stars are aligning for those patient with a dodgy Mazda platform...if it sticks around long enough, they will race them!

Anyway, I also want to emphasize that Christian and Brian worked from 10 - 7 tuning MS3's, and I can certainly say that Brian has now been endowed with the insight from Christian that makes tuning the MS3 as easy to Brian as he has been tuning Honda's/Subaru's/Mitsu's. And now with boost base tuning, a lot of the guess work has been eliminated for anyone to get a smooth, powerful tune.

Once I get my jpg printouts, I'll have more to share.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

I was fortunate enough to have my car tuned by Christian and Brian today. Christian is a wealth of information and it was good talking to him before the calibration session to find out his process, and after to hear the things he did that made power and what didn't make power.

it was definitely interesting to see the difference between the previous load tuning vs. boost tuning. I wish i had the boost graph for today's session but, suffice to say that it was a smooth curve that exactly matched the boost targets. this differed from my previous Stage 1 tweaked OTS dyno where the boost curve was jagged (http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/486/majesticbluedynoboost05.jpg) trying to meet the load targets.

Here's the dyno graph showing the iterations that Christian and Brian tried (note: my car is considered a Stage 2):

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/301/mbntoprotunejan2011.jpg

the lower blue line is a base calibration that Christian started with and the successive increases are what he did to improve power and torque throughout the rev range.

in the end, i'm very happy with the 282whp & 323wtq; not just in the numbers but how it feels on the road...power comes on linearly making the car much easier to drive with the extra oomph.

[-cj-]

I was lucky enough to let Christian from Cobb fondle my ECU. He's definitely one of the nicest guys I've ever met... It was non-stop learning since the moment I crashed his conference.

I had two tunes made, not sure which one this is (I'll have to talk to Bryan at APH tomorrow and get more graphs). One thing these graphs don't truly express is how much better the car behaves. Throttle response is smooth and thus shifting is smooth. Down shifts, up shifts... it doesn't matter, the car feels completely different. It feels like what I expected the car to feel like from the factory (Although much quicker :P). The fuel trims are always where they're supposed to be, 0% (for what seems to be 90-95% of the time). WOT had me grinning like a mad man....

http://www.clubnet.org/~clave/TM3/APH-Jan312011.jpg

Bottom line, I'm glad that we now have a local tuner in the GTA for our Speed's!

[cwp_sedan]

Nice numbers guys!

[laksman91]

nice numbers! A mod list with the sheets would be nice for future reference

[SSmoked]

Like mentioned above mods should be included to compare dyno numbers to other speed3 owners. Also if you guys have baseline dynos down it would be interesting to see the progress.
cj that has to be the weirdess hp curve i have ever seen. it pulls strong till 4000rpm and than flat lines till 6000rpm. ecu limiter?

ill be visiting APH after i tune my car to compare to my baseline dyno that i did at aph last year.

[fywdyl]

Nice numbers! This is good news, something to look forward to when the AP comes out for Gen2.

+1 on mods list!

[MajesticBlueNTO]

my other "baseline" dyno is posted in the Dyno section from last year's day at APH...and also in my UR downpipe thread (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?44403-Ultimate-Racing-Downpipe-and-Test-Pipe) :chuckle

to consolidate things, here is the Stage 1+intake dyno from APH

Stage 1 - 241whp / 278wtq

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8416/majesticbluedynohptq050.jpg

Stage 2 (I added the catted downpipe, HPFP, Turbosmart BPV) is what I pasted in my initial post - 282whp / 323wtq

[horto]

One thing these graphs don't truly express is how much better the car behaves. Throttle response is smooth and thus shifting is smooth. Down shifts, up shifts... it doesn't matter, the car feels completely different. It feels like what I expected the car to feel like from the factory (Although much quicker :P). The fuel trims are always where they're supposed to be, 0% (for what seems to be 90-95% of the time). WOT had me grinning like a mad man....


only minor tinges of regret here :P lol

I'll go see Bryan in the spring I guess...

[-cj-]

Like mentioned above mods should be included to compare dyno numbers to other speed3 owners. Also if you guys have baseline dynos down it would be interesting to see the progress.
cj that has to be the weirdess hp curve i have ever seen. it pulls strong till 4000rpm and than flat lines till 6000rpm. ecu limiter?

ill be visiting APH after i tune my car to compare to my baseline dyno that i did at aph last year.

That's one way of seeing it. =) It's boost pressure tuning, so my car is being told to hit a certain PSI and maintain it... For safety sake, there's a ramp up so the car doesn't try to hit those boost targets at unsafe RPMs. I initially thought I was maxing something out too, but I watched them tune out spikes to end up with a relatively flat curve.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

That's one way of seeing it. =) It's boost pressure tuning, so my car is being told to hit a certain PSI and maintain it... For safety sake, there's a ramp up so the car doesn't try to hit those boost targets at unsafe RPMs. I initially thought I was maxing something out too, but I watched them tune out spikes to end up with a relatively flat curve.

so, basically what you're saying is that you need MOAR turbo...a 3071 or 3076 perhaps? :chuckle

[-cj-]

Might as well! I'm already (being forced to) driving like I have a large turbo anyway. =) Who knows what the future holds... :chuckle

[mleblond]

would love to see the graph with PSI values...

[Fobio]

here are my plots...my car needs some breathing mods...

before...my own tune...much laboured through load based tuning...

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m50f7LraxWM/S-XXiGCN7cI/AAAAAAAADOM/7pSSTuRvmGk/s912/May8dyno01.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m50f7LraxWM/S-XffomvyUI/AAAAAAAADOs/rK41GpLG1s8/s912/May8dyno02.jpg

and after, by Brian and Christian w/ boost based tuning...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5300/5412320144_d822b30c5b_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5176/5411708233_f67db0e170_b.jpg

I'm happy to say I wasn't far off in getting most out of the car power wise, but now i't s delivered much more smoothly.

[SSmoked]

It's really interesting to see the difference between the speed 3 dynos and the ss/tc dynos. With nearly identical ko4 turbos our cars have completly different powerbands and power outputs.
Fobio those look like some pretty good numbers. Its a very smooth powerband which is what i like to see and feel in the car. what kinds of mods are done to your car? i only rember a fmic and tbe. have you ever considered meth injection or e47? i hear meth on turbo car makes them run like 110% better.

[Fobio]

I need meth...I do I do. And a bigger turbo...top mounted so it can be swapped out. Custom intake and dp to along with it...ninja dump tube etc....lol...it's too early to dream....

[laksman91]

I need meth...I do I do. And a bigger turbo...top mounted so it can be swapped out. Custom intake and dp to along with it...ninja dump tube etc....lol...it's too early to dream....

cmon turbo swaps are all the rage these days =)

[taz4432]

Meth injection is quick and easy and allows for some pretty big numbers but you better get a big tank or bring lots with you if you're planning on a track day. Most guys run a 50/50 of meth/water. Very few actually run 100% meth...saves money and you guys are *nowhere* near needing 100% meth.

Also, those graphs look great! You guys will have to take me for a spin at one of the track days or at a meet and let me see what you're all talking about! =P

[starscream]

Good numbers.

Interesting to see how the mods/tuning has played out.

Can you guys give a rundown of the mods you have on your respective cars. I am just trying to wrap my head around what you guys have and the numbers youve made.

[BlueStreak]

Fobio,

Would you mind posting your map up for review? I like your boost ramp up and would like to imitate it once I start tuning in the spring. I had a look at the Stage 2 + SF + FMIC and boost targets are something like 20.5 PSI at 2250 RPM. Scary...

[speed77]

How does low-end power feel with the more gradual onset of boost? I have gotten used to the big hit in power at around 2500 rpm when the boost hits on a stock map. The more gradual onset of boost/torque should help at the track coming out of low speed corners. I always found it tough to walk the line between accelerating hard out of the corners and lighting the tires up when the boost hit suddenly. Modulating the throttle was tough as it felt like an on/off switch

[-cj-]

Low end doesn't feel drastically different... I mean, I can feel that it's been pushed back a little, but because I rarely try to get into boost before 3k, it doesn't really feel much different. Especially since it's slippery out, so I don't get on the gas until much later. I'll post back when I launch it in the summer. =)

Although, I did find it easier to drive around in the winter at WOT from time to time, so wheel slippage has been reduced because of the more gradual build up in boost.

[Fobio]

Guys...I don't post my mods on Tm3...stock engine, stock turbo. You can lift my skirt on msf.org.

Regarding the map, TM3 doesn't have a file sharing system. Nor would I be comfortable sharing a locked map, that you can't use anyway. Furthermore, it'd be unethical to do so.

[Fobio]

How does low-end power feel with the more gradual onset of boost? I have gotten used to the big hit in power at around 2500 rpm when the boost hits on a stock map. The more gradual onset of boost/torque should help at the track coming out of low speed corners. I always found it tough to walk the line between accelerating hard out of the corners and lighting the tires up when the boost hit suddenly. Modulating the throttle was tough as it felt like an on/off switch

I've been running a smoother throttle mapping already, so the problem was less prominent for me, but I know what you're talking about. I told Christian, afterwards, that I had to drive the car without him in it so I can romp on it without looking like a maniac. I took a hard right hander and got on the gas hard and early...power is less, of course, but I also didn't light up the tires in an on/off way that required throttle modulation to keep in check...all in all, it may help you getting on the gas earlier and staying on it. Flip side, is cutting in/out of stop/go traffic might become more of a thrill ride, esp when you floor it and it takes a moment longer to hit boost.

[BlueStreak]

Regarding the map, TM3 doesn't have a file sharing system. Nor would I be comfortable sharing a locked map, that you can't use anyway. Furthermore, it'd be unethical to do so.

Fair enough.

[Fobio]

Street logs...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5053/5441048072_8af2a98645_z.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4137/5441118764_1142078d7f_z.jpg

[-cj-]

What gear? What are your actual g/s? (the actual number). Weren't you hitting 300 on the dyno?

[Fobio]

What gear? What are your actual g/s? (the actual number). Weren't you hitting 300 on the dyno?

always 4th gear. max maf is ~285 - 290g/s on this log, but this figure is very temperature dependent (I've hit into the high 290's when it was -25*C outside)...so it doesn't hit the actual whp figure on a dynapak...maybe a mustang dyno? lol...which explains why Cobb uses one...

[-cj-]

Great numbers either way! I think I fixed my stuff finally and found the clamp around my inlet hose lose. Feels like everything is coming apart lol. Need to invest in Loctite! Car still doesn't backfire during hard accel gear changes, like it did after the tune. Does/ did yours? (Forge V2). Hope to get some logs tomorrow.

[Fobio]

Great numbers either way! I think I fixed my stuff finally and found the clamp around my inlet hose lose. Feels like everything is coming apart lol. Need to invest in Loctite! Car still doesn't backfire during hard accel gear changes, like it did after the tune. Does/ did yours? (Forge V2). Hope to get some logs tomorrow.

My adjustable Turbosmart has been great...and it's likely running on the tighter side, so no back-fires ever...well, sometimes when it burbles in lower RPM puttering around the underground garage, and faint. With the new tune, and the fixed leaks, you might want to run a higher pressure spring now. =) Great stuff Jerry!

[MajesticBlueNTO]

street log, 3rd gear

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8223/wot3rdstreetlog.jpg

[taz4432]

You're pushing close to 40lb/min of air which means your probably putting high 300's down at the crank. Not bad...not bad at all.

I've been showing this thread to a few DSM buddies. I know a couple are going to start reading more into boost-based tuning and study it more thoroughly. It's definitely an interesting concept.

How are you guys finding the tunes after the first 2 weeks or so...?

[MajesticBlueNTO]

street log, 4th gear 5C outside temp (since i can't edit the 3rd gear one posted above, it was -5C outside temp for that one)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5682/wot4thstreetlog.jpg

[Fobio]

that smooth log is definitely something to write home about...EBCS when?

[MajesticBlueNTO]

Boost Air Temp in this log was 20-30F higher in this log (in the 100F range vs 70F-80F). As expected, g/s went down with the BAT increase...also, boost went up compared to my previous logs:

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/4995/wot4thstreetlogbat100s.jpg