Where you getting your HPFP?

[Snotrocket]

Have you gen 2 guys in the toronto area found an available solution to upgrade our fuel pumps? I, along with many others, am on the waiting list for the KMD internals...

[S.F.W.]

CPe has one:http://www.cp-e.com/content/mzr-disi-23-hpfpump%E2%84%A2 .
I'm keeping my eyes open for options. Not something I am likely to buy until late spring/early summer anyway.

[Snotrocket]

Just looking for internals i think at this point...

[swales]

I've been waiting for one but everything seems backordered with no real ETA

[Mty Mous]

Just looking for internals i think at this point...

How's the fuel pressure level holdinng with your SRI and TBE? I'm planning on doing SRI and then waiting for HPFP upgrade before doing anything else.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

best bet is to watch 247 or MSF for people parting out their cars.

there's a vendor on MSF (gerry@ardesign / njspeed) that plans to stock the cp-e units....but who knows how long they'll stay in stock when he does get them.

[swales]

best bet is to watch 247 or MSF for people parting out their cars.

there's a vendor on MSF (gerry@ardesign / njspeed) that plans to stock the cp-e units....but who knows how long they'll stay in stock when he does get them.

Considering he's been waiting months and cp-e continue to send them directly to customers who ordered after him it's probably quicker to order directly from cp-e (wish they would have more then a couple available every few months...pathetic)

I was looking to get internals from other companies like AWE but like cp-e, KMD etc they barely ever have stock either :(

[MajesticBlueNTO]

Considering he's been waiting months and cp-e continue to send them directly to customers who ordered after him it's probably quicker to order directly from cp-e (wish they would have more then a couple available every few months...pathetic)

I was looking to get internals from other companies like AWE but like cp-e, KMD etc they barely ever have stock either :(

we're fighting with the VAG 2.0T FSI and TFSI guys that want an upgraded pump as well....

cp-e is also relying on people to return their oem HPFPs so they can use it for the upgrade....and, since APR is supplying cp-e with the internals, the VAG market is way bigger than the MS3/6 market so maybe we're getting the short end of the stick from APR.

[Fobio]

I'd advise against the internals unless you're fairly mechanically skilled and able to troubleshoot whatever comes out of the install.

[Snotrocket]

How's the fuel pressure level holdinng with your SRI and TBE? I'm planning on doing SRI and then waiting for HPFP upgrade before doing anything else.

Ya also something I didn't realize when I put this exhaust on the car. I always had the impression it was a very non invasive mod. I am learning pretty quick to read first and mod later. I didnt have appropriate data logs done nor did i know what to monitor via gauges. Since the car has been stored for winter I have been spending hours reading many threads.

Anyways to answer your question i haven't blown up yet so I guess i can't be running to lean. Lol

[Tokay444]

you should monitor pressure then and be sure it never drops below 1600psi(11000kpa) at wot.

[mleblond]

I had KMD internals, installed them myself and worked fine. Fuel pump is the same for gen 1 and gen 2 right?

http://www.kmdtuning.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=1153

EDIT: But CPE is superior by far

[horto]

...to order directly from cp-e (wish they would have more then a couple available every few months...pathetic)

the thing that kills me about CP-e is that you gotta plunk down $600++ on your credit card and then wait endlessly for the damn thing to show up

unless they don't charge you until it ships? somehow i doubt that...

[SomeGuy]

https://www.cp-e.com/terms


Order Processing
cp-e™ will not charge your credit card until your order is ready to ship. Once your order is processed, you will receive an email including a copy of your invoice and the tracking number for your package. Please make sure that sales@cp-e.com is not blocked by your email provider.

[horto]

https://www.cp-e.com/terms

well in that case... giddy up!

[McGuyver_3]

I am going for the CP-E when the time comes that i need it.

[Tokay444]

Core charge is what kills it for me.

[McGuyver_3]

Core charge is what kills it for me.

you get the core back once they receive your stock pump. they give you 45 days to return yours to them. I on the other hand am going to keep my stock pump, as what happens if the pump breaks down? Life time warranty is a good thing BUT if it breaks down and you have to send it out to them you are going to be out of a car for atleast 1 month. So 1 month of driving easy to not lean out the car to much with the stock pump is worth the core charge for me

[Kris"Speed3"CWP]

you should monitor pressure then and be sure it never drops below 1600psi(11000kpa) at wot.

as the new Cobb access port was released, with it is understanding tuning differences PDF which explains some of the reason for my 10% fuel dilution.

I have also since found out the Logic for ECU for GEN1 And Gen2 is different in the way it reacts to DI fuel pressure drops. If Psi drop below 1600psi then it will increase the injector pulse width,(IPW) which puts an increased demand on the fueling system further dropping the DI fuel pressure.
ECU appears to be calibrated to increase the fuel injector pulse width once it sees DI Fuel Pressure drop below ~1600psi. When this occurs, the ECU will run the engine with excessive fuel hindering torque production.

So I guess with the higher fuel demands of the Intake plus the demands when the car is in boost and the new ECU logic when pressure drops below 1600psi the car begins over fueling as it increases injector pulse width. My car in stock setup at W.O.T,(wide open throttle) is seeing 1670psi so there is only a 70psi cushion before over fueling begins with this new ECU logic as the stock CDFP,(Cam Driven Fuel Pump) was not upgraded to reflect the changing demands of this new ECU logic which increases injector pulse width,(IPW) which further strains DI fuel pressure. Hence why Gen 1 does not see this problem as it leans out slightly rather than put increased demands on an already max out Cam Driven Fuel Pump.

This is the reason for my thread for Oil samples to see if others with Gen2's are running into same problem as with mine with mods on the intake side of engine.

Once I get next oil sample back we will see if the Fuel dilution falls back to within acceptable limits or if I am still getting fuel mixing with oil at higher than normal levels.

I took off my dealer installed MazdaSpeed CAI,T.I.P,BPV,Corksport recirculation tube and inter-cooler boost tubes.

On a foot note with a CAI,TIP,and cat-back exhaust if you were to run a cobb stage 2 tune the boost would be limited to 14psi as that is all the CDFP can support so if you think the stock turbo is spooling at 15.66psi this fuel system is already within 70-100psi of its limits with sock air box before over fueling begins!!

Gen2 runs rich and then stupidly or excessively rich if DI fuel pressure drops below 1600psi no damage will be done you will just lose power and increase fuel consumption and the fuel does help cool the engine but will increase your fuel dilution in the oil,(AKA viscosity breakdown)

Gen1 runs rich then leans out when DI fuel pressure drops but is still within acceptable ranges hence the long list of mods you can do before upgrading the CDFP as the ECU does not increase IPW if fuel pressure drops below a predetermined point!

Conclusion First upgrade Needed on Gen2 is the CDFP needs to be replaced then you can do a Intake as all fuel demands will be meet even without a tune! So HP CDFP at $600plus or Acess Port at $600 to go with your intake mods?? These are the only option with a CAI and T.I.P you will need to avoid 1600psi pressure drop and prevent overfuelling!

[Kris"Speed3"CWP]

I am going for the CP-E when the time comes that i need it.

Guess you are keeping your car stock, because you will need HP CDFP if you plan on doing anything other than BPV,inter-cooler inlet/outlet tubes, recirculation tube,T.I.P. As soon as you take the stock air box out which is the same as regular mazda3 and the biggest restriction point in the Gen2 you are screwed for higher fuel demands.

Cobb access port stage1 with CAI, and T.I.P with tune is very good but it not at 100% of it capabilities until you put a HP CDFP on, this should tell you something!! Not being able to get full benefit of a stage1 tune with simple mods with this new ECU logic for Gen2 until a HP-CDFP is installed? Unheard of but hey if you want to play you got to pay!

[McGuyver_3]

Guess you are keeping your car stock, because you will need HP CDFP if you plan on doing anything other than BPV,inter-cooler inlet/outlet tubes, recirculation tube,T.I.P. As soon as you take the stock air box out which is the same as regular mazda3 and the biggest restriction point in the Gen2 you are screwed for higher fuel demands.

Cobb access port stage1 with CAI, and T.I.P with tune is very good but it not at 100% of it capabilities until you put a HP CDFP on, this should tell you something!! Not being able to get full benefit of a stage1 tune with simple mods with this new ECU logic for Gen2 until a HP-CDFP is installed? Unheard of but hey if you want to play you got to pay!

I have a reliable source I have been discussing this with. From what he has read, he stated that the speeds are ok with the stock pump as long as you do not exceed the following mods
inlet pipe
short ram
top mount
cat back
bov

the tune from AP obviously will require it. Until I decide to do the tune I have no real need for the pump.
I will just need the bolt ons which some I have already

[-cj-]

You'll be playing with fire, in my opinion. Think of the HPFP as modding insurance...

Also, the stock tune is safest, but if the Gen2's are anything like the first gen's, you'll eventually hit fuel cuts in cold weather and you'll be running really rich, which might make that fuel pump a requirement (on stock tune) rather then added insurance. On the stock tune, with those mods, your fuel trims will be way off.

Check eBay or MSF for a used, possibly defective, stock pump... and use that as your trade in. They're going to rebuild it anyway. My stock fuel pump was fine, held 1700psi fine (never attempted dp with stock pump tho) and I made sure I held onto it for the same reasons you mentioned above.

[S.F.W.]

Check eBay or MSF for a used, possibly defective, stock pump... and use that as your trade in. They're going to rebuild it anyway. My stock fuel pump was fine, held 1700psi fine (never attempted dp with stock pump tho) and I made sure I held onto it for the same reasons you mentioned above.
I was reading on MSF that you only get your core rebate once they test and verify the fuel pump you send back works.

[McGuyver_3]

You'll be playing with fire, in my opinion. Think of the HPFP as modding insurance...

Also, the stock tune is safest, but if the Gen2's are anything like the first gen's, you'll eventually hit fuel cuts in cold weather and you'll be running really rich, which might make that fuel pump a requirement (on stock tune) rather then added insurance. On the stock tune, with those mods, your fuel trims will be way off.

Check eBay or MSF for a used, possibly defective, stock pump... and use that as your trade in. They're going to rebuild it anyway. My stock fuel pump was fine, held 1700psi fine (never attempted dp with stock pump tho) and I made sure I held onto it for the same reasons you mentioned above.

My source has told me that the computer system is completely revamped from gen 1 and gen 2 and is alot more mod freindly. I do not plan to do a DP before the pump upgrade, but i would like to do just a cat back.
As for looking for a used or defective pump I have already called several wreckers and they want to sell me the pump in the tank. When i say i want the pump on the motor they state I would have to buy the entire engine. I rather just keep mine and pay the core. by the time i find a used or defective one have it shipped and taxed over the border i think the price will work out to close the same.

[SomeGuy]

Can someone fill me in on what the cp-e deal is? Can you not just buy a whole new pump from them?

[McGuyver_3]

http://www.cp-e.com/content/mzr-disi-23-hpfpump%E2%84%A2

yes you can buy a new pump but they are currently on backorder. They cannot keep up with production

[-cj-]

I was reading on MSF that you only get your core rebate once they test and verify the fuel pump you send back works.

Sorry, you're right about that. The pump I bought was "defective" because it couldn't hold 1700+ psi at WOT. It still worked though. I think complete pump failures are rare.

[-cj-]

My source has told me that the computer system is completely revamped from gen 1 and gen 2 and is alot more mod freindly. I do not plan to do a DP before the pump upgrade, but i would like to do just a cat back.
As for looking for a used or defective pump I have already called several wreckers and they want to sell me the pump in the tank. When i say i want the pump on the motor they state I would have to buy the entire engine. I rather just keep mine and pay the core. by the time i find a used or defective one have it shipped and taxed over the border i think the price will work out to close the same.

Really sucks that they won't separate the pump from the engine. Maybe you'll luck out and find a speed3/6/cx7 with front end damage.

As for more mod friendly, I think these engines handle mods well, people just blow up because they don't monitor engine sensors. From my (limited) understanding of gen twos, only the AP allows second gens to read engine sensors, so I would make that one of my first purchases. If you aren't holding fuel pressure at wot, you won't even know it without a logging device.

Also, I'd read everything that Cobb has to say on this platform. I think they have the most experience with it ATM. Even Mazda has them tuning their 2010 race cars...

[Kris"Speed3"CWP]

My source has told me that the computer system is completely revamped from gen 1 and gen 2 and is alot more mod freindly. I do not plan to do a DP before the pump upgrade, but i would like to do just a cat back.
As for looking for a used or defective pump I have already called several wreckers and they want to sell me the pump in the tank. When i say i want the pump on the motor they state I would have to buy the entire engine. I rather just keep mine and pay the core. by the time i find a used or defective one have it shipped and taxed over the border i think the price will work out to close the same.

Your source knows jack!!! GEN2 is not mod friendly as it will not let you lean out and any drop in DI fuel pressure under 1600psi results in over-fueling!!! Me with just CAI,T.I.P was causing a 10% fuel dilution in my oil due to being constantly over-fueling!!!

Now with stock pieces back on car I have seen increased fuel mileage with one tank, Oil level not rising on dipstick, oil on dipstick not reeking of 94 octane gas!! Just a very slight fuel order with your nose pressed against dipstick!!!

None of you guys doing mods actually monitor your critical engine oil to see what they are really doing to your car???

Here is Cobbs Tunning tech for GEN1 and GEN2 the real differences not My buddy or a good source told me so!!! GEN2 is not mod friendly and you can't even get max stage 1 with out a HP CDFP..
http://accessecu.com/support/docs/support/AP-MAZ-002/2010%20MS3%20Support.pdf

p.s Do your mods with no pump upgrade and you will be constantly over-fueling losing torque and power and losing fuel mileage not to mention increasing fuel dilution in oil. SO I hope you do your 8000km oil changes with mineral oil and hope your engine lasts with that viscosity breakdown due to all that fuel washing going on!!!

Do you even have a proper way to monitor you engine like a Dash-hawk or DD or any other monitoring device??? My DI fuel pressure is running 1670psi at W.O.T mmmhh wonder what mods 70psi can get me?? Specs for stock pump from Mazda shop manuals are 11.5Mpa at 60% plus engine load if not pump is defective, my stock set up is 11.717Mpa at W.O.T so anything bellow 11.03Mpa will cause over fueling. Do all the mods you want you won't damage or blow anything up unless your leaving your fuel log oil in to long!!

[CelestSpeed3]

Kris you're getting really excited here.

I've been reading through Mazdaspeed Forums quite a bit and I agree with Macguyvers source too. The other people are posting that the gen2 will exceed the fuel pump's capacity with the addition of a top mount and any cat removal. Even the PDF you supplied from Cobb states the same thing, the intake and inlet pipe are about as far as you can go before needing an upgraded pump.

I'm running the CPE nano and inlet pipe and I've never seen an odd oilling issues nor gas smell. I've been using Shell 91, so I'm not sure if that makes a difference.

The pressure in the pump should only drop if the injector duty cycle gets too high anyway. Even with my intake mods my pressure may still hold above 1600psi, so there is no problem.

If it makes you feel better I'll get my AutoEnginuity out and do some data logging for you.

I've also been doing oil changes every 4000km with Castrol Edge 5w-30. I'm sure the oil will be fine. I only hit WOT maybe once a week for only a few seconds anyway.

[McGuyver_3]

Your source knows jack!!! GEN2 is not mod friendly as it will not let you lean out and any drop in DI fuel pressure under 1600psi results in over-fueling!!! Me with just CAI,T.I.P was causing a 10% fuel dilution in my oil due to being constantly over-fueling!!!

Now with stock pieces back on car I have seen increased fuel mileage with one tank, Oil level not rising on dipstick, oil on dipstick not reeking of 94 octane gas!! Just a very slight fuel order with your nose pressed against dipstick!!!

None of you guys doing mods actually monitor your critical engine oil to see what they are really doing to your car???

Here is Cobbs Tunning tech for GEN1 and GEN2 the real differences not My buddy or a good source told me so!!! GEN2 is not mod friendly and you can't even get max stage 1 with out a HP CDFP..
http://accessecu.com/support/docs/support/AP-MAZ-002/2010%20MS3%20Support.pdf

p.s Do your mods with no pump upgrade and you will be constantly over-fueling losing torque and power and losing fuel mileage not to mention increasing fuel dilution in oil. SO I hope you do your 8000km oil changes with mineral oil and hope your engine lasts with that viscosity breakdown due to all that fuel washing going on!!!

Do you even have a proper way to monitor you engine like a Dash-hawk or DD or any other monitoring device??? My DI fuel pressure is running 1670psi at W.O.T mmmhh wonder what mods 70psi can get me?? Specs for stock pump from Mazda shop manuals are 11.5Mpa at 60% plus engine load if not pump is defective, my stock set up is 11.717Mpa at W.O.T so anything bellow 11.03Mpa will cause over fueling. Do all the mods you want you won't damage or blow anything up unless your leaving your fuel log oil in to long!!

So after reading your complete link that you posted it states that 18psi max the stock pump is keeping up with. With an inlet pipe and short ram I am sure I am close but i do not think i am exceeding that limit. Call me anything you like but I am not monitoring my guages as i am not excessivly modified and before continuing to modify anything crazy of course i will upgrade the pump. the AP system is something that i am also looking in to and of course will also purchase.
Since the day I picked up my car it has been running full synthetic, oil changes taken care of every 2000km. OO yeah even if i used mazdas oil, it is a semi synthetic so it is somewhat better then mineral but thats irrelavent. The car runs long trips back and forth to work and my oil level never changes nor does it reek of gas. I run 91 esso but what difference does that make? You are throwing away your money for nothing. And just as a side note, this could be a reason due to reduced mileage as well. Your car is factory tuned for 91 and you are trying to burn 94. I know this is a deffinate FACT as in my 10 sedan i ran 91 and got worse mileage then on 87, was a minor difference but their was one
From my understanding the article stated that level 1 tune will work fine with the inlet and intake and that it will keep up with the stock pump.
Catback wont be a problem either unless the no catted DP goes in which will be causing dangerous spikes in boost and possible over boost causing a super touchy gas pedal conditions

[Kris"Speed3"CWP]

actually you did not read the link close enough! It state that you will not get full benefit of a stage one without a HP CDFP do I have to cut and paste.

Also you have no monitoring device???

No oil analysis?

Nothing but he said she said, good luck with that!

If you read my first post you need to have as your first mods either a CAI and HP CDFP to keep up with fueling demands, or Aceess Port and CAI to have no over fueling issues.

As the new CAI is not calibrated to the ECM it will strain your fuel system unless you take the limits put in place by the ECM being tuned to the stock air box the same as base mazda3's out and proper fuel trims in,if not ecm will over compensate.

AND yes 18psi is the max if you have an AcessPort and CAI not just a CAI or T.I.P or Exhaust..
you cannot mod this car without a tune! Belive what you want!

SInce you guys can read so well here is another link
http://www.cobbtuning.com/info/?ID=3223

[Kris"Speed3"CWP]

I have a 2010 Speed3 I had CAI,tip,BPV,related boost tubes in blue put-on my car! I have dashhawk and
related numbers from monitoring! I have excess fuel in oil from my lab reports, MCI techs have look at my car.
We are in the last stages with car back to stock to figure this out!! Already I am seeing a differance in the car but have to wait for next lab report!

Booter22 can verify this info but not really comment on it as it is ongoing issue, and MCI techs said they recommend using 94 as the minimum is 91!! But believe what you want to believe and do your mods without proper monitoring I'm giving legit info on a problem that artist with Gen2. Even Cristian from Cobb has been helping and his first recommendation was put stock air box back on until tune available to resolve issue!!!

[Tokay444]

Yeah watch out for those problems that artist, get oil analysis for the live of god. ANALYSIS!!!

[optiklenz13]

^LOL!!

This Kris guy never fails to amuse me.

Hide yo children and yo wife!!!

[CelestSpeed3]

Speaking of oil analysis is there anywhere local we can get that done?

Datalogging will be done today. Kris you can relax, if i want to blow up my own car with 1000 shot of NOS why can't you just let me do that?

So what the link says if I get and AP and due the CPE tune, it's not maximized but it's safe. Can we at least agree on that?


Kris, lets have a chat in person, come out to the Woodbridge meet on Wednesday or I'll come out to see you. You really seem to know more than I do so I want to pick your brain in person rather than banter all over the boards.


EDIT: Kris the article you posted in the previous thread is ``The use of Aftermarket Intakes on 2002+ Subaru factory-turbocharged vehicles``it also states ``Please note that the content of this technical article is specific to 2002-newer Subaru factory turbocharged vehicles including the WRX, STi, Forester XT, Baja Turbo, and Legacy GT Turbo/Outback Turbo. The systems used on other year models and non-turbo versions do differ in design and the information included here does not apply.``

Maybe you posted the wrong link. I`ll be happy to read whatever you post up.

[CelestSpeed3]

Just got back from datalogging.

I maybe only hit WOT and full boost maybe once a week if that, which would explain my first WOT reading of starting at: Pump (psi), rel throttle (%), Maf reading (gm/sec), Engine RPM (RPM)
1637psi, 32%, 162.06, 3400rpm
1557psi, 39%, 187.03, 3966rpm
1010.65psi, 40%, 194.06, 4685rpm
1351psi, 43%, 210.34, 5300rpm
1769psi, 33%, 165.22, 5837rpm

Second Pull:
1718.25psi, 38%, 169.71, 3577rpm
1738.55psi, 44%, 196.92, 4462rpm
1741.45psi, 49%, 201.31, 5263rpm

Third Pull:
1725.5psi, 37%, 175.56, 3850rpm
1693.6psi, 44%, 201.31, 4661rpm
1709.55psi, 39%, 191.92, 5455rpm

Fourth Pull:
1716.8psi, 37%, 143.93, 3333rpm
1668.95psi, 38%, 162.69, 3815rpm
1725.25psi, 41%, 176.22, 4288rpm
1668.95psi, 42%, 187.03, 4708rpm
1683.45psi, 43%, 194.77, 5099rpm
1622.55psi, 40%, 196.2, 5439rpm
1647.2psi, 35%, 16.38, 5708rpm

Fifth Pull:
1632.7psi, 47%, 196.02, 4610 rpm
1692.15psi, 54%, 217.37, 5040rpm
1751.6psi, 49%, 14.3, 5708rpm

Sixth Pull:
1599.35psi, 47%, 213.43, 4814rpm
1735.65psi, 37%, 118.99, 5589rpm

Seventh Pull:
1650psi, 27%, 211.89, 4486rpm
1700.85psi, 48%, 219.76, 5054rpm
1751.6psi, 30%, 13.46, 5752rpm

Some of this data might seem not to make any sense like how can the throttle be at 30% and the Maf flow be at 13.46. This is because the Auto-enginuity software records once peice of data a time milliseconds apart.

Kris does this make you feel better now?

[MajesticBlueNTO]

^mazda6smtx, are you at WOT at those data points?

[CelestSpeed3]

Yes, Sir.

I couldn't put my foot any lower. The values seemed odd maxing out around 50%, but that's what it says.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

Just got back from datalogging.

I maybe only hit WOT and full boost maybe once a week if that, which would explain my first WOT reading of starting at: Pump (psi), rel throttle (%), Maf reading (gm/sec), Engine RPM (RPM)
1637psi, 32%, 162.06, 3400rpm
1557psi, 39%, 187.03, 3966rpm
1010.65psi, 40%, 194.06, 4685rpm
1351psi, 43%, 210.34, 5300rpm
1769psi, 33%, 165.22, 5837rpm


Some of this data might seem not to make any sense like how can the throttle be at 30% and the Maf flow be at 13.46. This is because the Auto-enginuity software records once peice of data a time milliseconds apart.

Kris does this make you feel better now?


^mazda6smtx, are you at WOT at those data points?


Yes, Sir.

I couldn't put my foot any lower. The values seemed odd maxing out around 50%, but that's what it says.

then your pump has already begun taking a shit

[CelestSpeed3]

That was only on the first run, the rest of the runs seemed fine. Also that was probably the first time my car has seen boost in over a week. I don't really push it much at all. I'll do some more datalogging and see if the results come back the same.

I personally at the moment don't think the pump is maxed out yet. It's probably very close though.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

That was only on the first run, the rest of the runs seemed fine. Also that was probably the first time my car has seen boost in over a week. I don't really push it much at all. I'll do some more datalogging and see if the results come back the same.

I personally at the moment don't think the pump is maxed out yet. It's probably very close though.

doesn't matter if it's the first time in boost or the 1000th time, you dipped into the 1000psi range at WOT and that is a cause for concern.

[Fobio]

try logging "Accel. Pedal Pos. %" instead of throttle pos'n %, which will max out @ ~75%. If you floor the pedal, but throttle is maxed @ 50%, you got other issues....try logging actual AFR as well, instead of commanded afr.

I didn't read all the back and forth re: Gen2's as it doesn't affect me, but the situation is that once you guys max your fuel pump, the car starts to read lean and the ECU starts to dump more fuel by open the relief valve and/or upping pressure (to its max)...the more you ask, the more it dumps fuel to achieve the "commanded afr"...something happens here, and the car goes into a downward spiral chasing AFR instead of making power, going way rich. I don't know if the situation you guys describe is this, but it could certainly be a culprit. Christian stated that Cobb will release (or had already?) clear documentation recommmending different stage of hardware mods to accompany the tunes.

For some reason, everyone who has this car, myself included, have a perspective that THEIR MS3 is somehow blessed by the car gods and immune to 90% of what others suffer...from personal experience, I am not immune to any other MS3 woes. Only difference is research and committment to doing mods for preventive reasons, rather than straight out modding for power and let the cards fall where they may.

[CelestSpeed3]

Don't get me wrong Fobio, I don't think my car is blessed at all. I just think that I'm at the limit of my pump already. I won't be going any more mods to the car until I get a pump installed.

I just don't think my car is going to explode as Kris says. I rarely drive my car in boost so I don't see the problem.

I'll do more datalogging with the parameters that you said tomorrow and see what happens.

So what should I log next?

RPM
Pump Pressure
Accel Pedal %

[Fobio]

Don't get me wrong Fobio, I don't think my car is blessed at all. I just think that I'm at the limit of my pump already. I won't be going any more mods to the car until I get a pump installed.

I just don't think my car is going to explode as Kris says. I rarely drive my car in boost so I don't see the problem.

I'll do more datalogging with the parameters that you said tomorrow and see what happens.

So what should I log next?

RPM
Pump Pressure
Accel Pedal %

troof:

1. wot your car into full boost often (in proper gear)...not going into boost will not get you off a ticket/citation, or a good guy award at the dealer...drive safe tho.

2. #1 is also good for your car.

3. spend more time logging and less time typing them out.

Try these:

time
rpm
accel pedal pos'n %
intake temp
knock retard
calculated load
long term fuel trim (LTFT)
MAF (g/s)
Actual AFR
DI Fuel Pressure
Boost
Wastegate Duty %

Good luck...and post your log as a screen cap of a excel spreadsheet...saves you time.

[CelestSpeed3]

Thanks for the advise, that's so much easier than typing it out.

[laksman91]

Off-topic don't hurt me :( :

Mazda6smtx:

for your "local" oil analysis I've heard of these guys: http://www.wearcheck.com/contact/contact.asp?Who=WCAMIS
but I think I'm going to use Blackstone in the states if I ever decide to do a check

Kris: If you're worried about oil thinning out. Why not go to a 40 weight so that it thins to a 30 instead of 30 becoming 20

[CelestSpeed3]

Thanks for that link. I figured there had to be a place to get it done locally.

I just didn't want to bother with shipping and duties dealing with blackstone.

[Kris"Speed3"CWP]

The article from Cobb for after market intakes was just a general example of what goes into a factory air-box, I also never said anyones cars would blow up. Cobb has a list of mods to be done in that order to avoided the over fueling issue that arises when the DI Fuel Pressure drops below 1600psi.

Putting on a CAI without a recalibration of the ECU will cause over fueling once the CAI surpasses that of the stock air-box hence ECU will over compensate by dumping more fuel, increase IPW of the direct injectors. This might be a separate action aside from the IPW being increased when DI pressure drops below 1600psi and the combine resultsof the two is what I am seeing in my car with the 10% fuel dilution after 6,000km.

Just want people to know it is wise to spend $600 on a Access Port or $600 on a HP CDFP before you start adding CAI T.I.P and TMIC or cat back exhaust!
Once I get my next Oil Analysis back we will know for sure what is going on with my Gen2.

P.S Oil Analysis is cheap insurance to make sure your car is running right and prevent or catch problems before they become an issue! I would never have know of my over-fueling issue without one! Check out Mazda SPeed forums under Troubleshoot to see my actual oil results!
http://www.polarislabs1.com/how-to-get-started.php
trucking and taxi companies and big fleets do this to reduce costs!

[Kris"Speed3"CWP]

Thanks for that link. I figured there had to be a place to get it done locally.

I just didn't want to bother with shipping and duties dealing with blackstone.
I send mine to Polaris in Edmonton by Canada post

[CelestSpeed3]

So the general consensus is that my next order of business must be either a CPE pump or the Cobb AP. Am I understanding this right?

[Fobio]

So the general consensus is that my next order of business must be either a CPE pump or the Cobb AP. Am I understanding this right?

Let's see those logs first, but nothing wrong with that plan of action.

[Kris"Speed3"CWP]

Off-topic don't hurt me :( :

Mazda6smtx:

for your "local" oil analysis I've heard of these guys: http://www.wearcheck.com/contact/contact.asp?Who=WCAMIS
but I think I'm going to use Blackstone in the states if I ever decide to do a check

Kris: If you're worried about oil thinning out. Why not go to a 40 weight so that it thins to a 30 instead of 30 becoming 20

As per MCI requirements when they replaced my turbo I had to revert back to the 5w30 grade from the Amsoil heavy duty diesel and marine oil Synthetic 15W/40 that MCI put in to resolve smoking issue. I would love to use a 5W40 as all my VW DI cars use this but my car is under the scope right now, so I can't!

I am using Amsoil XL 5W30 Full Synthetic. My base TBM number are about half of new,(9.8) when changing out at 4,000km would be 5.54TBN so still plenty of lubrication but not a 30 with the fuel dilution.

[Kris"Speed3"CWP]

http://www.therpmstore.com/product_info.php?cPath=219_122&products_id=796

here is a link to the CPE HP CDFP.

[CelestSpeed3]

Ya, I've dealt with Donny at theRPMstore.com for a long time since he first opened shop.

I've had the intake on for a long time now, I'm don't really remember when. When did I show up to that meet drunk? That's when.

Don't worry I didn't drive there. :)

[horto]

:pop

I think I'll order mine from CP-e directly (http://www.cp-e.com/content/mzr-disi-23-hpfpump%E2%84%A2).

[CelestSpeed3]

Ya same here, when the time comes I'll go through CP-E directly like I have for everything else.

TMIC and Motor Mounts are already on the way.

[Tokay444]

Kris, at this point all you're doing is repeating yourself.
Mazda6smtx, if you don't really push your car, ever, why not revert it back to stock and not worry about it?

[CelestSpeed3]

To be honest, I just really like the sound of the turbo when it spools up. That was really my only reason for getting the intake in the first place.


I don't mind buying the AP and the fuel pump at this point.

The car has been in it's current state for a few months now, and if I get the CPE pump in march it will only be at most another 2 months anyway. I really don't want to take everything off in the cold weather only to put in on in the spring time again.

[SSmoked]

why not revert it back to stock and not worry about it?

Because stock is nooo fun.

Interesting reading here. i didnt relize what goes on behind the scene on the ms3 to get the most out of it.

[CelestSpeed3]

Well, I went ahead and ordered the CP-E pump.

Now we play the waiting game, in the mean time. Data Data Log Z!


Sorry for some reason I had Dragonball Z on my mind.

How many episodes until Goku reaches King Kai? Probably the same amount of weeks I have to wait for my CP-E pump.

[Fobio]

I don't want to sound all smart and all, cuz all you have to do is perk your ears and info will come, but the first time I heard of the issue was when Mazda first started getting serious racing the Gen2 MS3. The race announcer went on to compliment the Gen2 despite lack of development, but that they were dumping fuel at high rpm (to keep the turbo's cool, as the theory went at the time), and that they were losing 1 lap to the RX8's due to extra fueling needs. Mazda is now serious is campaigning the 2.3L DISI and as such is forced to overcome the tuning issues. It is unfortunate as this was a 5 second long sound bite on a race no one likely watches.

Fast forward to about a year later and now we have tuning solution that addresses this.

[CelestSpeed3]

I try to watch World Challenge all the time, I mostly just watch it online though.

[McGuyver_3]

wow this thread exploded since I was here last. I just ordered my pump, now the waiting game on when it gets shipped out

[Kris"Speed3"CWP]

Kris, at this point all you're doing is repeating yourself.
Mazda6smtx, if you don't really push your car, ever, why not revert it back to stock and not worry about it?

Seriously what is your problem??? Obviously you cannot read, as I am back to stock to figure out the fuel in the oil problem!!

All I am doing is sharing my experience on here for others not to make the same mistake that happened with my MazdaSpeed CAI. I feel the same as Mazda6sMtx and love the sound of the intake and being able to hear the BPV is an added bonus. If I knew these parts were going to cause an over-fueling issue I would not of had paid the dealer to put them on to stay in warranty,(blue Mazda speed part 12/20,000km or new vehicle comprehensive which ever is longer)I would have got the HP CDFP first or waited till the AP came out!

Go take your hating and negative comments over to Mazda3 forums you'll fit right in!! I have posted nothing but actual readings of DI pressure from my stock CDFP at WOT in psi and Mpa and listed the stock values for the pump functionality as per Mazda specs, to show how maxed out it is before new ECU logic takes over under certain conditions and begins increasing IPW. Along with some informational links.

SO to you Tokay444 learn how to read A.H and stop putting words in my mouth!! If you don't really push your car??? screwoff already!!

[CelestSpeed3]

Okay, I'm did more logging this morning and still don't think I'm picking the right throttle value. This time I used Commanded Throttle Actuator Control, and the highest value I recorded was 55%.

So here it is runs this morning:

Load/LTFT/RPM/MAF/ Fuel Rail/ B1S1 Lam/ Com. Thrtl./Man. Abs. Pres.
27 2.34 2939 5.02 1634.15 1.006 25 29.2
63 2.34 3746 14.7 1666.05 0.922 32 41.6
92 2.34 4915 25.58 1639.95 0.694 41 46
91 2.34 5943 1.62 1703.75 1.218 34 42.8
99 2.34 4702 24.02 1651.55 0.697 42 50.2
97 2.34 5334 24.74 1674.75 0.674 41 46.3
19 7.02 5431 1.31 1206.4 1.999 9 5

17 2.34 2894 7.92 1654.45 0.946 39 55.2
99 2.34 3133 19.04 1676.2 0.821 41 58.4
99 2.34 3398 18.97 1634.15 0.805 41 54.9
99 2.34 3680 19.58 1671.85 0.785 25 15
15 6.24 3700 0.99 858.4 1.394 7 5.9

42 2.34 2991 13.47 1692.15 0.882 40 60.8
99 2.34 3238 18.89 1731.3 0.79 41 56.6
99 2.34 3520 19.12 1709.55 0.798 41 54
99 2.34 3794 20.3 1666.05 0.766 42 52.8
99 2.34 4052 21.11 1657.35 0.754 43 52.5
99 2.34 4279 22.2 1634.15 0.734 44 51.9
38 2.34 4323 1.08 990.35 1.999 8 5.6

25 2.34 3408 7.83 1671.85 0.954 34 46.3
99 2.34 3998 21.86 1661.7 0.771 42 54
99 2.34 4802 25.2 1699.4 0.698 45 50.2
96 2.34 5511 24.47 1742.9 0.645 40 41.9
87 2.34 5227 1.38 1542.8 0.973 11 5.6
5 6.24 4221 1.19 1099.1 1.999 8 5.6

11 6.24 4011 6.51 1647.2 0.903 36 42.5
88 2.34 5938 2.48 1711 0.86 31 28.6
89 2.34 4015 19.74 1666.05 0.677 38 36.6
26 2.34 4735 1.37 994.7 1.166 9 5.6

12 6.24 3333 4.57 1567.45 0.984 37 38.1
99 2.34 4283 22.62 1724.05 0.663 27 28.9
66 0 5061 19.2 1647.2 0.654 61 49.9
86 0 5920 4.15 1273.1 0.991 10 5
5 6.24 5274 1.31 970.05 1.999 9 5

26 2.34 2808 4.36 1528.3 1.001 20 22.7
44 2.34 3455 19.43 1674.75 0.823 55 62.2
99 0 4990 18.66 1647.2 0.846 9 5.3
6 6.24 4705 1.31 955.55 1.999 9 5.6

46 2.34 4579 20.06 1696.5 0.684 37 40.4
90 2.34 5769 2.11 1349.95 0.881 37 46.3
98 2.34 4462 20.38 1703.75 0.658 37 32.5
65 0 5463 19.66 1647.2 0.666 46 44.8
95 0 6303 1.81 1329.65 0.997 10 5
5 6.24 5765 1.2 1064.3 1.999 9 5

23 2.34 2663 4.12 1581.95 1.007 23 26.8
48 2.34 3271 14.51 1679.1 0.886 40 55.5
99 2.34 4814 3.54 1344.15 0.823 9 5.9
5 6.24 3902 1.1 1319.5 1.999 3 4.7

Let me know what you guys think. I can datalog all day and all night if you want. The pump still seems to me to be able to keep up with the demand. Although I don't think I can change anything else on the motor.



Kris did yo use the Mazdaspeed intake from the Gen1? Just on a hunch here, the MAF diameters are different and from the people I talked to at my dealer said that the Gen2 is not compatible with the Gen1 intake. There is also no Gen2 part number, according to my dealer.

[CelestSpeed3]

Your fuel in the oil could be any number of things. I don't know your drive cycles but when a DI engine is cold the fuel will condense on the cylinder walls and mix in with the oil causing high fuel dilution. If you don't warm the car up completely then and start driving hard you will only make this issue worse. Many short drive cycles will also cause this issue as well. It could be that your intake and your drive cycles are causing the problem. This issue with DI engines is well documented at www.bobistheoilguy.com.




SIDE NOTE: I converted my highest absolute manifold pressure to psig and it works out to 15.5psig.

[Tokay444]

All I'm saying is that you're repeating yourself over and over.
Every post you've made so far has been, "IWP. Over fueling at WOT. Oil dilution cd hpfp. It's getting old. We heard you. Also, I'm able to read just fine. I've read your post about the exact same thing 6 times now. I never said for you to go back to stock. Maybe you can't read.

Seriously what is your problem??? Obviously you cannot read, as I am back to stock to figure out the fuel in the oil problem!!

All I am doing is sharing my experience on here for others not to make the same mistake that happened with my MazdaSpeed CAI. I feel the same as Mazda6sMtx and love the sound of the intake and being able to hear the BPV is an added bonus. If I knew these parts were going to cause an over-fueling issue I would not of had paid the dealer to put them on to stay in warranty,(blue Mazda speed part 12/20,000km or new vehicle comprehensive which ever is longer)I would have got the HP CDFP first or waited till the AP came out!

Go take your hating and negative comments over to Mazda3 forums you'll fit right in!! I have posted nothing but actual readings of DI pressure from my stock CDFP at WOT in psi and Mpa and listed the stock values for the pump functionality as per Mazda specs, to show how maxed out it is before new ECU logic takes over under certain conditions and begins increasing IPW. Along with some informational links.

SO to you Tokay444 learn how to read A.H and stop putting words in my mouth!! If you don't really push your car??? screwoff already!!

[Fack_Dude]

This is funny shit!!!!!!bbbb:huge smile

[CelestSpeed3]

What does IWP stand for?

[MajesticBlueNTO]

What does IWP stand for?

it's supposed to be IPW = Injector Pulse Width

[CelestSpeed3]

Thanks, I was lost on that one and Google didn't help

[Tokay444]

Because I effed it up. Though I'm not sure google would have IPW either.

[swales]

I ordered my HPFP from cp-e today, hopefully it gets here before spring

[MajesticBlueNTO]

Okay, I'm did more logging this morning and still don't think I'm picking the right throttle value. This time I used Commanded Throttle Actuator Control, and the highest value I recorded was 55%.

So here it is runs this morning:

Let me know what you guys think. I can datalog all day and all night if you want. The pump still seems to me to be able to keep up with the demand. Although I don't think I can change anything else on the motor.

Kris did yo use the Mazdaspeed intake from the Gen1? Just on a hunch here, the MAF diameters are different and from the people I talked to at my dealer said that the Gen2 is not compatible with the Gen1 intake. There is also no Gen2 part number, according to my dealer.

Your logs are a mess to read and the sample sets are too small to really see what is happening through the rev range.

start from ~2900rpm and keep your foot down until at least 6000-6200rpm indicated on the tach. in some of the logs it looks as if you lifted your foot or the ecu closed the throttle plate.

it would also be helpful if you can state what gear you're in.

to help others look at this, i put your values into excel and graphed it...i'm an excel idiot so if i can do it, so can you:




Load/LTFT/RPM/MAF/ Fuel Rail/ B1S1 Lam/ Com. Thrtl./Man. Abs. Pres.
27 2.34 2939 5.02 1634.15 1.006 25 29.2
63 2.34 3746 14.7 1666.05 0.922 32 41.6
92 2.34 4915 25.58 1639.95 0.694 41 46
91 2.34 5943 1.62 1703.75 1.218 34 42.8
99 2.34 4702 24.02 1651.55 0.697 42 50.2
97 2.34 5334 24.74 1674.75 0.674 41 46.3
19 7.02 5431 1.31 1206.4 1.999 9 5

here it looks as if you lifted your foot because you leaned right the hell out to ~17.9(!) AFR and then got back on the gas where you dip down to 10 AFR:
http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/3694/mazda6smtx1stdatasetwma.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3480/mazda6smtx1stdataset.jpg



42 2.34 2991 13.47 1692.15 0.882 40 60.8
99 2.34 3238 18.89 1731.3 0.79 41 56.6
99 2.34 3520 19.12 1709.55 0.798 41 54
99 2.34 3794 20.3 1666.05 0.766 42 52.8
99 2.34 4052 21.11 1657.35 0.754 43 52.5
99 2.34 4279 22.2 1634.15 0.734 44 51.9
38 2.34 4323 1.08 990.35 1.999 8 5.6


this is really your only useful log:
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/262/mazda6smtx3rddataset.jpg

but it looks as if your DI fuel pressure is trending down and your AFR is in the 10s, all before 5000rpm.

[CelestSpeed3]

Well that explains why the car feels dead after 5000rpm. I also had the traction control on, so that might explain the odd values. I'll run it again today without the TC off.

I'll only measure AFR, boost, MAF and Rail pressure, RPM and Load.

I had the computer do sample set down to 1ms, so there was less than 1 second between all the values.

Is it better to do the pull in 3rd or 4th gear? 4th gets a little too fast for the street though but 3rd moves through the RPM range too quickly.

[Fobio]

Kris: you mean well, and I see you participating regularly on MSF.org...I also think you've done a lot to find out the reason of your "rich" issue, tho that little sound bite I mentioned from the race would've prolly helped you quite a bit. It's likely difficult to deal with all that this car has given you. Perhaps you should come out to our next get-together, so that we can share with you what we had to deal with and how. At that point, maybe you'll feel more empowered to deal with the issues...I know it ain't no fun being the first guy to find out he's got wrinkly balls...guess what, we all do! lol

M6MTX: MBNTO found that the Auto-E logs each INDIVIDUAL PID 1ms apart...I can't really comment on that, other than that all the readings are like 1ms apart...not a world of difference, but enough that your data doesn't line up in a row (of exact time). Keep up the logging at least tho, and have the Auto-E output in CSV instead, which you can output to Excel as a spreadsheet or nice fancy graph that MBNTO has made. The Dash Hawk and the AP will output better logs for proper evaluation/review.

[Kris"Speed3"CWP]

Last meet I was at was at Nextmod in Markham last one of summer, but definitely hit me up and I'll try to make it!

In response to Mazda6sMtx Yes I had the Gen1 Mazdaspeed CAI installed as it was sold to me and installed on my car by Mazda Dealership to fall within Blue Mazda SPeed part warranty. This has since been removed as per MCI stating this part is not approved for my vehicle only 2009 and prior and have been re-reimbursed all costs associated with this.

I warm up car for 3-4min then drive of and never go past 40 or 50% Load until I am at 76-82 degrees and I drive for minimum 20-25minutes as I have runtime displayed on dash-hawk in a 6 window split with coolant temp, intake temp, cat temp,air/fuel ratio,TPS. Bob the oil guy is a great forum

I have 5 data logs with RPM,vehicle speed, engine load, DI fuel pressure, and MAF I will post once I have more and list them here.

I am using a Dash Hawk and my car is in back to stock so far all values look good and do not drop below the 1600psi threshold, although it is precariously close!


Mazda6sMtx what are you using to log and is your car stock?

[CelestSpeed3]

I had a perfect data run on my way from school to night school.

Here it is:

RPM, Rail Press, Absolute Load, Lambda, Boost

2103, 1277.45, 100, 1.002 31.9
2412, 1674.75, 171, 0.922 49
2854, 1699.4, 175, 0.856 58.4
3415, 1741.45, 168, 0.803 56.6
4019, 1734.2, 161, 0.742 55.2
4587, 1664.6, 159, 0.71 54.6
5127, 1713.9, 148, 0.694 52.5
5610, 1674.75, 130, 0.67 49
5901, 1751.6, 112, 0.624 41
6078, 1632.7, 104, 0.615 38.3
6255, 1721.15, 26, 0.63 36
5678, 1724.05, 44, 1.049 12.7

I'm getting so pissed off at this spreadsheet non-sense I'm going to loose it. I just spend 1.5 hours trying to make a graph. Forget it, not to mention how to I post the shit graph that I made into this window. The data looks so nice on this window and when I preview it, it gets all squished.

Anyway on to better things.

Fobio:

I have the Auto-Eng, outputting everything into a wonderful spreadsheet with all of the millisecond time stamps that each data was recorded at. In the sample above, the readings are with 10ms of each other so I think that's pretty close.

I think it's safe to say that the pump is holding up find to the mods on the car.

I'm not sure if I want to do more WOT data logs the car is crazy fast and in this weather I honestly don't like driving it that fast with these road conditions. Plus I can only get 1 WOT drive cycle at a time entering the highway. If you feel it's best that I just data log all the time then I will do so.

Kris:

I am data logging with The Auto-Enginuity software that is on my net-book. I drive with the net-book on the passenger seat and it records everything I ask it too.

My car is not stock, I have the CP-E Nano, ,CP-E TIP and CP-E RMM.

I'm 99% sure that your fueling issue was due to the intakes being different from the Gen1 to the Gen2. The parts might fit, but they are not the same. I don't think the Gen1 has the MAF air straighter than the Gen2 requires. People at Mazda Canada should be able to confirm this. If not it sounds like I'll have to call up Sandra and head on in there with my logs and get to the bottom of this regarding your car.

Macguyver has the same engine setup as me and I can record the values on his car too if you want a 3rd party value table to go off of.

Whatever I can do to help you out, consider it done.

[fywdyl]

Try using an underscore, like this:

a__b__c__d__
1__2__3__4__

[-cj-]

Mazda6smtx: I think at least one of the values in your data log is incorrect... The last bit of data can't be your boost, or you would have a hole in your block by now. =) (IE: Values as high as 60)

Also, I won't pretend to know stuff about the 2nd generation, but the engine is the same as the 1st gen... Just the way the ECU works is different. That being said, it's still possible that the MAF setup is different and thus your comment about the air straightener being different makes sense,... but I personally don't think that's the case. But then again, stranger things have happened....

[Fobio]

Mazda6smtx: I think at least one of the values in your data log is incorrect... The last bit of data can't be your boost, or you would have a hole in your block by now. =) (IE: Values as high as 60)

Also, I won't pretend to know stuff about the 2nd generation, but the engine is the same as the 1st gen... Just the way the ECU works is different. That being said, it's still possible that the MAF setup is different and thus your comment about the air straightener being different makes sense,... but I personally don't think that's the case. But then again, stranger things have happened....

he's using some PID that reads manifold pressure @ 15.x...so his boost numbers need to -15.x...I hope, at least. lol
he also needs to get used to going WOT in this car...don't be afraid of TeH FaSt!

[CelestSpeed3]

The boost reading is manifold absolute pressure in in/hg.

Basically you divide that number by 2.036254, then subtract the static atmosphere pressure (assume 14.7, the data logger give me this reading to it changes with the weather so I don't record it) and you have your boost in psi.

In this case it's 14psi, when it reads 58.4. If it reads 60 then it's about 15 psi.

[Kris"Speed3"CWP]

The MazdaSpeed CAI had the air straightener and it was turned to the 1:00 at the top and 7:00 at the bottom as per the instructions that came with the CAI. This is irrelevant if the diameters are different,the stock air box on the gen 1 looked the same to me as Gen2 off a buddies car and the MAF was in the top half like ours. But like I said this was a quick glance from his OEM parts bin!

SO I take it the CPE is made for our Gen2 cars? Thanks guys

[CelestSpeed3]

Yes sir, the CP-E intakes are calibrated for the Gen2.

The problem that you were having is also seen with using a Cobb SF on a Gen2. The SF causes CEL and the MAF reading to be thrown off and that was only due to a few mm difference in pipe diameter.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

The MazdaSpeed CAI had the air straightener and it was turned to the 1:00 at the top and 7:00 at the bottom as per the instructions that came with the CAI. This is irrelevant if the diameters are different,the stock air box on the gen 1 looked the same to me as Gen2 off a buddies car and the MAF was in the top half like ours. But like I said this was a quick glance from his OEM parts bin!

SO I take it the CPE is made for our Gen2 cars? Thanks guys

the diameter of the MAF tube is NOT irrelevant. The genpu has a slightly larger MAF tube than the genwon. the stock ECU is calibrated to expect a certain amount of air per MAF voltage.

the smaller diameter will flow less total air but the the oem ECU is expecting a greater amount per MAF voltage. the ecu is still throwing the fuel for the air it expects per MAF voltage (unless you can re-calibrate it with a Cobb AP)...which would likely explain why you were running rich and had fuel dilution.

looking at M6SMTX's log, he's in the 9s in terms of AFR....which is ridonkeylously rich for Direct Injection.

[-cj-]

Im also surprised that no one has mentioned that pretty much everyone is getting fuel dilution, even on the first gen's. Im pretty sure it's a way of life on these cars. Mind you, I haven't hit my 5k oil change period yet since being tuned. My car holds mid 11's at WOT now as opposed to 10ish.

Im pretty sure most people (my self included) just run good oil and change it more frequently. Some even have catch can setups to further assist. I haven't gone that route yet.

[CelestSpeed3]

Fuel dilution is an issue with all DI engines. As I mentioned before it has to due with the fuel condensing on the cylinder walls when the engine is started cold. This even happens in the summer, the temperature of the cylinder walls is below the boiling point of the fuel. This has been covered on bobistheoilguy.com if you care to read through 10's of pages off DI oil analysis threads.


On a side note, is it possible to run these engines in the 12's without damaging the cats?

I'm not looking to remove the cats off of this car just spice up the intake track and a tune. Are there any Gen1 owners that are local have gone this route? What kind of power has been made like this? I've been finding it hard to search on MSF for what I've looking for.


MajesticBlueNTO:

I think you may have miss read what Kris said regarding the intake diameter. He said the orientation of the MAF is irrelevant if the tube diameter is different.


EDIT: I found what I was looking for I should have been in the dyno section not the engine section. Looks like 300whp isn't going to for me.

[horto]

I'm getting so pissed off at this spreadsheet non-sense I'm going to loose it. I just spend 1.5 hours trying to make a graph. Forget it, not to mention how to I post the shit graph that I made into this window. The data looks so nice on this window and when I preview it, it gets all squished.


maybe fobio or MBNTO can post their excel template?

as for posting ... just take a screen sho (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/Use-Snipping-Tool-to-capture-screen-shots)t, crop, throw it in your dropbox public folder (http://www.dropbox.com/), copy public link, and insert it into your post as an image.

however I might also suggest creating a separate thread for data log posting and advice. (for all of us)

:OT :)

[Snotrocket]

Update, ordered my internals from Autotech... Did a bit of research in the vdub community and most of what i am finding is Autotech>KMD... Hopefully they will be shipped out tomorrow morning.. I'll post a full review and data logs when i get my car back on the road in the spring...

[Snotrocket]

Couldnt wait until spring... Installed internals myself today and did a few pulls... what a difference! Fuel pressure holding at 1700 - 1950 PSI!!!! Call hauls ass now and im only running the stage 2 safe map! Install took about 4 hours using a how to thread.. Never done anything like this before and it went fairly smooth...

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/mazda/3rdand4th.jpg

[Tokay444]

How is your wgdc% 0 while you're honking on it?

[Snotrocket]

How is your wgdc% 0 while you're honking on it?

I just assumed it was because im running a safe map? im not sure.. anyone?

[Snotrocket]

another i just took... now im getting waist gate values...

3rd and 4th gear WOT
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/mazda/3and4.jpg

[fywdyl]

That still doesn't make sense... but anyway, those are some nice numbers!

[-cj-]

Your boost keeps dropping... Or am I reading that wrong? I think your WGDC is weird because you're losing pressure somewhere else? Are you running updated AP firmware? You aren't hitting any silly load limits are you?

[Snotrocket]

I don't know what the stage 2 safe map looks like normally at WOT. But target boost is lower (15psi). I just reflashed with stage 1 94oct map now that I have the upgraded internals. Apparently that should perform better.

[horto]

hey it's your lucky day: http://blogs.cobbtuning.com/2011/03/17/accesstuner-and-stage2-calibrations-available-for-2010-mazdaspeed3/

[Fobio]

I don't know what the stage 2 safe map looks like normally at WOT. But target boost is lower (15psi). I just reflashed with stage 1 94oct map now that I have the upgraded internals. Apparently that should perform better.

boost is low for a Gen1 Stg2+ map which targets 19psi, I don't know anything about Gen2 boost control re: WGA , but what does your map notes say about boost targets?...you're running a tad rich too which is robbing a bit of power...

start your own thread and others can also chime in about your logs.

remove "STFT" and "Throttle Pos'n"...add "Actual Pedal" or something like that instead.

proper WOT 4th gear log should be similar to a dyno pull...

EDIT: I'm pretty sure you don't have any "load cap" issues.

[Snotrocket]

Hey fabio thanks for the reply... I did fix the "running rich problem" (see thread http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?51127-Important-for-all-2010-s-running-catless-DP ) yesterday. So that problem has been solved.. i will start a threat with some new logs this weekend.. Much appreciated!

[Fobio]

Hey fabio thanks for the reply... I did fix the "running rich problem" (see thread http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?51127-Important-for-all-2010-s-running-catless-DP ) yesterday. So that problem has been solved.. i will start a threat with some new logs this weekend.. Much appreciated!

I didn't even realize it's your thread...lol...I guess I meant start a dedicated thread about your tune in the Tuning section to keep the discussion going, and not have that info lost deep in this thread.

[rmcat]

Corksport is making a HPFP for MS3 as they claim on m3f,$599 for the whole fuelpump,no core exchanging required

[Tokay444]

Siiiic! Hopefully it's as good as the cp-e one. I think I'll be ordering the autotech internals while they're on promo for April though.

[horto]

just talk to fobio and get the cp-e one

cp-e's quality is outstanding

[Fack_Dude]

The Cp-e fuel pump kicks ass! :thumbsup

[swales]

Installed my Cp-e one last Friday and it's great!

[Blkoutspd3]

Getting the CP-E one eventually, i wouldnt get internals.

[4g.]

Wanting the CP-E.. trying to order the CP-E.. not going anywhere with CP-E.. frustrated with CP-E.

[Fobio]

for anyone local in TO looking for a CP-e fuel pump, we have a program going on...but it has to be installed with Jimmy @ Street Performance.

[optiklenz13]

for anyone local in TO looking for a CP-e fuel pump, we have a program going on...but it has to be installed with Jimmy @ Street Performance.

Pm details?

[Fobio]

PM sent.

[Snotrocket]

Autotech Ftw

[4g.]

for anyone local in TO looking for a CP-e fuel pump, we have a program going on...but it has to be installed with Jimmy @ Street Performance.

Ill also take a PM for details thank you sir!

[rmcat]

Siiiic! Hopefully it's as good as the cp-e one. I think I'll be ordering the autotech internals while they're on promo for April though.

where's the promo?

[AkitoI]

I just ordered internals from North American Motorsports... KMD Titanium CarboNitride (new version) HPFP Internals. They currently have some in stock for anyone looking.

[starscream]

I also ordered from NA Motorsports (great guys) for the KMD Titanium CarboNitride-FluxCapacitor HPFP Internals. I did the order on tuesday. Gonna pick it up this coming monday. Install doesnt seem to bad, tons of members have done it on MSF.

I just gotta get clarification that to clean using gasoline, or brakecleaner. I might just give a call to KMD directly (or the instructions they provide might shed more light), in anycase gonna attempt this one on my own.

[AkitoI]

picking it up? aren't they in NY State? Paid $30 for shipping...gahh, sometimes I wish I lived in the states (only sometimes!)

I too will be doing the install myself.

[starscream]

picking it up? aren't they in NY State? Paid $30 for shipping...gahh, sometimes I wish I lived in the states (only sometimes!)

I too will be doing the install myself.

Yeah. I travel to the states once a week for school. So I had it delivered to somewhere there locally and I just go and pick it up.

Yeah seems like a straight forward install. If you want lemme know when you get yours. We can hook up and do the install together.

[horto]

the KMD Titanium CarboNitride-FluxCapacitor HPFP Internals.

Flux capacitor?!!! Are we putting a Mr. Fusion on your car too?

http://www.overclock.net/attachments/power-supplies/141062d1265881230-benefits-upgrading-needs-more-jiggawatts.jpg

[starscream]

Flux capacitor?!!! Are we putting a Mr. Fusion on your car too?


You SO know it! I mean I figure with the flux capacitor and a Mr. Fusion I can generate the 1.21 jiggawatts to get me to 88mph...I mean I know it'll have to be a 3rd gear run!

[rmcat]

If someone's still looking for the internals namotorsports have some in stock,I just ordered a set for $339.95 shipped.

AP custom tune after the internals...

DJ E-Tune here I come!

[arashms3]

i ordered the CP-e hpfp .. but there is no ETA given.. could be a 2 week wait could be a 2 month wait :(

[horto]

i ordered the CP-e hpfp .. but there is no ETA given.. could be a 2 week wait could be a 2 month wait :(

talk to fobio if you want to avoid the core charge

[Addison]

I have a CP-E coming in on July 2nd (I shipped it to a family member in NY) that's going to be for sale. I don't want to put up an actual 'For Sale' thread yet, as I don't have it in my possession yet, but if you're in need, keep an eye on the Classified forum on July 2nd.

[Fobio]

latest batch here...PM for details.