Richmond Hill Bylaws: Standing = Parking

[Zuluwun]

For those of you who know the Bantry/Red Maple area, I was sitting in one of the garage lanes there waiting to pick up a friend. Apparently, those lanes are fire routes and as such are marked "No Parking" as I found out.

As I'm sitting there, one of those bylaw SUVs drives right up in front of my car and highbeams me once. Thinking that I wasn't doing anything wrong I wondered what this guy's beef was; there was tons of space to go around me and people drive around parked cars there like that on a regular basis. Since he decided to just sit in front of my car after beaming me, I pulled off into a parking space (not mine) to allow this guy to pass and once he did, I reversed back out to my former spot on the road. Looking in my rearview mirror, I watched this guy eyeball me the whole time that he spent driving by me. Given that the only form of communication he'd given was a beam and a dirty look, all I'm thinking at this point is :loco.

Several minutes later, I notice him walk past the passenger side of my car, ticket in hand. Apparently, he'd pulled up behind me without me noticing. He walks out in front of my car, takes a picture and proceeds to lift my wiper. You gotta be f*cking kidding me... I get out and ask "What's all this about?" He says "You're parked in a fire route. I already asked you to leave once and you came back. Here's your ticket."

Wait, what? I go to check the sign and it indeed says Fire Route, No Parking. Ok fine, I wasn't parked. I mention this to him, "Sir, I realize there's no parking here. I was standing." It apparently doesn't strike him as deserving of his respect to turn around to answer me. He continues walking away calling over his shoulder "It doesn't matter, you're parked in a fire route." (Yeah, I heard you the first time bud). By this point he's opened his door and I'm flaming mad that he doesn't seem to care that I'm speaking to him (respectfully, I might add).

One more time, "Excuse me sir, I'm sure there's a difference between parking and standing." Again, he doesn't care that I'm speaking. As he's opening his door and climbing in, he calls "Not when it comes to bylaws. Maybe you should read them before you fight it kid."

What the f*ck. Dude, I don't care if you're right but treat me like a person. Just because I'm young and in a (very modestly) modified car does not make me scum. It's not something I expect this guy to understand, but profiling like that is bullshit. What's worse is that he's right about the ticket. I don't see how I can fight it.

In my ignorance, I had no idea what Richmond Hill's definition of parking was. It just cost me $150. For others who don't:



Park or parking - defined
"park or parking" means the halting of a motor vehicle, whether occupied or not, except when halting temporarily for the purpose of, and while actually engaged in, loading or unloading goods or passengers

So in Richmond Hill, you don't stop, you park. Welcome. :flaming

[aZuMi]

Those guys are BS. During my sister's bridal shower, one of the SUVs would literally wait by the cars of the guests, mark the tires with the chalk and wait it out for the 3 hours before they can issue a parking ticket. My dad would have to move all the cars one by one just to move the chalk mark. They will literally wait for you to make a mistake then ticket you at every opportunity.

And yes, I live near that area.

[n00bMeiSter]

You should fight it and tell them that you were in the process of loading goods and passengers. And that they had run back inside to pick up another load of goods.
Since he did not take pictures of the interior of your car, he can't say that you weren't. You can also bring up the fact that he was a complete prick and that he most certainly did -not- ask you to move once. His Highbeaming you cannot possibly hold up in a court of law. He did not verbally ask you to move.

[Zuluwun]

You should fight it and tell them that you were in the process of loading goods and passengers. And that they had run back inside to pick up another load of goods.
Since he did not take pictures of the interior of your car, he can't say that you weren't. You can also bring up the fact that he was a complete prick and that he most certainly did -not- ask you to move once. His Highbeaming you cannot possibly hold up in a court of law. He did not verbally ask you to move.

That's what I'm thinking too, it's really the only argument I've got. Either way, I technically wasn't supposed to be "parked" there and I can't find anywhere that says they have to warn you first.

[n00bMeiSter]

No, but hopefully the judge will be lenient; seeing that you have no other parking violations (right?), and if you are respectful and calm about the whole matter. Simply tell the judge that you were sitting in your car, and he drove up, high beamed you and drove off. You had no idea what he was doing or why.

[Slade]

Confused...

You said you were standing? Where was your car...did you "stand it" and get out?

Not to be a dick, but I don't feel pitty for people that get a parking ticket for a no parking zone, handicap parking, or fire zone parking.

Even if you try and say you were loading your vehicle when fighting it, you were still parked in a zone you shouldn't have been.

In Burlington, we call a stopped car "parked" ;)

[n00bMeiSter]

Confused...

You said you were standing? Where was your car...did you "stand it" and get out?

Not to be a dick, but I don't feel pitty for people that get a parking ticket for a no parking zone, handicap parking, or fire zone parking.

Even if you try and say you were loading your vehicle when fighting it, you were still parked in a zone you shouldn't have been.

In Burlington, we call a stopped car "parked" ;)



Standing is what most cabbies do; where you sit in your car in a no parking zone, or a zone with time limited parking, etc.

Fact of the matter is, yes he was in a fire route, but he was sitting in the car the whole time. So if there was a fire, he could have easily moved (and most likely would have done so very quickly).

[Slade]

Standing is what most cabbies do; where you sit in your car in a no parking zone, or a zone with time limited parking, etc.

Fact of the matter is, yes he was in a fire route, but he was sitting in the car the whole time. So if there was a fire, he could have easily moved (and most likely would have done so very quickly).

But my confusion is still there.

To me if your'e car is stopped (except at a street light or a stop sign)..You are parked.

The OP stated the bylaw parked behind him without noticing and at least long enough to write the ticket, what if it was an ambulance or fire truck?

I'm just trying to understand how you are comparing a parked car to standing...I stand at the urinal to take a leak, or am I stopped?

Should No Parking signs actually say No Standing?

[n00bMeiSter]

But my confusion is still there.

To me if your'e car is stopped (except at a street light or a stop sign)..You are parked.

The OP stated the bylaw parked behind him without noticing and at least long enough to write the ticket, what if it was an ambulance or fire truck?

I'm just trying to understand how you are comparing a parked car to standing...I stand at the urinal to take a leak, or am I stopped?

Should No Parking signs actually say No Standing?

Dude, it's a term. I don't know how you could have gotten your license and not understand this.
Your car is not parked until it is in park, plain and simple. Some municipalities are just desperate for the extra revenue so they make up stupid bylaws like Richmond Hill did. According to RH bylaw, when you are at a red light they consider you parked. I'm sorry but that's just not true. I'm stopped when at a red light, or if you want to stretch it Standing, but not parked.

However, OP needs to clarify what he means by "Garage lane".

[Zuluwun]

But my confusion is still there.

To me if your'e car is stopped (except at a street light or a stop sign)..You are parked.

The OP stated the bylaw parked behind him without noticing and at least long enough to write the ticket, what if it was an ambulance or fire truck?

I'm just trying to understand how you are comparing a parked car to standing...I stand at the urinal to take a leak, or am I stopped?

Should No Parking signs actually say No Standing?

-An emergency vehicle would have lights flashing and most likely sirens if it was an emergency. Do you disagree? Much more conspicuous than a quiet white SUV.

-In other municipalities (AFAIK), signs distinguish between "No Stopping" "No Standing" and "No Parking"


Dude, it's a term. I don't know how you could have gotten your license and not understand this.
Your car is not parked until it is in park, plain and simple. Some municipalities are just desperate for the extra revenue so they make up stupid bylaws like Richmond Hill did. According to RH bylaw, when you are at a red light they consider you parked. I'm sorry but that's just not true. I'm stopped when at a red light, or if you want to stretch it Standing, but not parked.

However, OP needs to clarify what he means by "Garage lane".

Thanks for having my back n00bMeiSter, but further reading in the municipal code revealed that the only other exclusions to the stop=park rule is when complying with a police officer or traffic signal or sign. Still, the concept of throwing out the term "standing" is kind of BS. If I need to stop for any other reason, I am considered parked. :|

I thought I might have to clarify the garage lane thing. o0aZuMi0o knows what I mean cuz he lives around there. In the area, between two streets of townhouses there in a lane between them containing ONLY driveways and garages for the aforementioned townhouses. Although there is signage to indicate that it's a fire route, it's common to see cars parked and standing along the sides of these lanes.

[n00bMeiSter]

-An emergency vehicle would have lights flashing and most likely sirens if it was an emergency. Do you disagree? Much more conspicuous than a quiet white SUV.

-In other municipalities (AFAIK), signs distinguish between "No Stopping" "No Standing" and "No Parking"

+1




I thought I might have to clarify the garage lane thing. o0aZuMi0o knows what I mean cuz he lives around there. In the area, between two streets of townhouses there in a lane between them containing ONLY driveways and garages for the aforementioned townhouses. Although there is signage to indicate that it's a fire route, it's common to see cars parked and standing along the sides of these lanes.

Oh, okay, I've never heard of those being called Garage Lanes. Cool. In this case, if you had a parking spot you could have used, ie the one for the person's home you are at, or maybe the one next to them, that would have been a better choice. Yeah it would suck when the owner of that spot comes home, but at the same time, its less hassle than dealing with enforcement.
Still, you must be able to fight it. Maybe call around to some firms, or call X-copper and see what they have to say about it. All the douche had to do was knock on your window and say "hey, this is a fire route, please move" and things would have been fine. But instead, he did not do his job properly.

[Zuluwun]

I don't think "garage lanes" is an official term, I just used it for lack of a better one. Looks like I'll be taking this to court then.

I get that I "parked in a fire route" (according to the associated bylaw) and that ignorance of the law is no excuse, so please, spare me the lecture. The point of this thread was more to inform than dispute and my problem is more with the bylaw officer than the fine. Just to clarify things Slade.

[alhope34]

I think this was the same white Ford escape driving around on king William when I was parking by the construction site to visit my family, just before you spotted me. I was parking there right at 10 am this morning and you said you spotted me at 1030. Yea, he was staring me and my car down pretty good. I always make stupid faces to people staring at me for no reason, so I did to him too lol.

[Zuluwun]

^ yeah, definitely the same guy.

[alhope34]

Well, at least be happy that he looked dumbfounded when I gave him my stupid face as I was walking across the road. :P

[Fack_Dude]

HAHA that's funny. Good luck fighting the ticket...lol

[Mr Wilson]

City of Toronto has a list of all the fire route locations/addresses in Toronto. Many/several areas are either missed, not included, whatever. Maybe Richmond Hill has something similar.


Family member had the same issue, but another "stopped" vehicle was told to move.

[Zuluwun]

Well, at least be happy that he looked dumbfounded when I gave him my stupid face as I was walking across the road. :P

Much appreciated man. haha



City of Toronto has a list of all the fire route locations/addresses in Toronto. Many/several areas are either missed, not included, whatever. Maybe Richmond Hill has something similar.


Family member had the same issue, but another "stopped" vehicle was told to move.

Interesting, thanks. Not sure if it would help though, there was signage to indicate it was a fire route.

[The Wolf]

Isn't it illegal for him to flash highbeams?

Lol, "Your honour, thank God I was stopped because he could have temporarily blinded me by flashing his highbeams in my eyes"

[omalak]

Fire route or not, if the OP was unaware of the fact that he was "standing" in a fire route the bylaw officer should have got out informed the driver he needs to move and thats that.

Being an ass and just flashing highbeams doesn't do much.

Id say i have to side with the OP. That is nust pathetic. Maybe he needed to fill his quota.

I would fight this

[tweak_s]

I literally live on Bantry.. just outta curiosity, which "fire routes" are these? I've never really parked much on side roads just wondering so I can avoid this.

Thats ridilcous though, high beaming? What the heck does that mean? how do you interpret it as "telling you to move"? Ridiculous.

Edit: Someone I missed the part where you explained..

Behind those townhouses on bantry? Really!?!? Wow thats rough.

[Nextmod]

lol anyone on my facebook page knows that I got it worst then you did

we got 5 ticket all in one night parked in front of nextmod in a parking spot when I was inside the store with all my friends

he said there is no over night parking when we were all out side watching him ticket us lol

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/nextmod/179219_10150097713803147_512373146_6090926_7343925 _n.jpg

[Zuluwun]

damn, Peter. That's unreal, what qualifies as "overnight parking"? Does just being there really late count as "overnight"?

Does anyone know if parking tickets impact your insurance?

[alhope34]

damn, Peter. That's unreal, what qualifies as "overnight parking"? Does just being there really late count as "overnight"?

Does anyone know if parking tickets impact your insurance?


Only moving violations effect insurance. Parking, loud exhaust, or improper headlight style tickets are not moving violations.

[n00bMeiSter]

lol anyone on my facebook page knows that I got it worst then you did

we got 5 ticket all in one night parked in front of nextmod in a parking spot when I was inside the store with all my friends

he said there is no over night parking when we were all out side watching him ticket us lol

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/nextmod/179219_10150097713803147_512373146_6090926_7343925 _n.jpg

That's whacked Peter! What time of night was this? Like 3am?
How can they possibly ticket you for parking in the parking spots for your own business while you are in your store working!

[Zuluwun]

Only moving violations effect insurance. Parking, loud exhaust, or improper headlight style tickets are not moving violations.

Good, that's what I thought. Thanks alhope34



That's whacked Peter! What time of night was this? Like 3am?
How can they possibly ticket you for parking in the parking spots for your own business while you are in your store working!

+1, working or not.

[Zuluwun]

Update: Got the ticket reduced to $60 and am filing an official complaint about the bylaw officer who ticketed me.

[n00bMeiSter]

Update: Got the ticket reduced to $60 and am filing an official complaint about the bylaw officer who ticketed me.

You should try and get it thrown out.

[WLS ZMZM]

That really sucks... but the bylaw guys love that area... I live on Oneida Cres.. and really its a dead end street.. with 3 condos... and they enforce the overnight parking thing to a ridiculous point..... and literally there is like 5 cars there every night.... the Richmond Hill bylaw officers have some serious issues.... and they don't care. As for the parking vs. standing... pretty simple.... parking car is not running and its off.... standing car is "stopped" but still running... I'd still say fight it.... the bylaw officer only had to take two seconds to come up to the vehicle and speak to u about moving the car.... and im sure you would have done so accordingly. However he didn't which made this matter worse. Flicking his high beams is hardly a proper warning!! As for the example of emergency vehicles sirens and flashing lights are a little more noticeable.

[n00bMeiSter]

As for the parking vs. standing... pretty simple.... parking car is not running and its off.... standing car is "stopped" but still running... I'd still say fight it.... the bylaw officer only had to take two seconds to come up to the vehicle and speak to u about moving the car.... and im sure you would have done so accordingly. However he didn't which made this matter worse. Flicking his high beams is hardly a proper warning!! As for the example of emergency vehicles sirens and flashing lights are a little more noticeable.

Amen to that!

[Zuluwun]

That really sucks... but the bylaw guys love that area... I live on Oneida Cres.. and really its a dead end street.. with 3 condos... and they enforce the overnight parking thing to a ridiculous point..... and literally there is like 5 cars there every night.... the Richmond Hill bylaw officers have some serious issues.... and they don't care. As for the parking vs. standing... pretty simple.... parking car is not running and its off.... standing car is "stopped" but still running... I'd still say fight it.... the bylaw officer only had to take two seconds to come up to the vehicle and speak to u about moving the car.... and im sure you would have done so accordingly. However he didn't which made this matter worse. Flicking his high beams is hardly a proper warning!! As for the example of emergency vehicles sirens and flashing lights are a little more noticeable.


I know, right? I agree with everything you said.

However, in the town of Richmond Hill, it doesn't matter; standing and parking are the same thing, see the excerpt from the municipal code I quoted in the first post. I spoke to a "hearing facilitator" and he told me that the whole bylaw-officer-being-a-dick won't hold up in court cuz the judge is hired by the province of Ontario and apparently doesn't give a crap about anything other than facts. Technically, the bylaw jerk didn't even have to warn me, although the guy I was speaking to (incidentally, a retired city of Toronto cop) admitted that the he could've handled it better. I don't think I have much of a hope in court, because in the end my car was "parked" in a no parking zone. Ignorance of the law will only get me so far... I'm disgusted at the (by)law, but there's really nothing else I can do beyond what I've already done.

[zoso]

Well how long were you waiting, as you stated you can stay there for the loading and un-loading of passengers. since you were picking someone up wouldn't that count as Loading of a Passenger?

[Zuluwun]

long enough that the bylaw guy never saw my friend. she showed up right after I got ticketed.. again, referring to the definition in the first post, I have to be actually engaged in loading/unloading. Immediately prior and immediately after, I'm parked. :|

[zoso]

long enough that the bylaw guy never saw my friend. she showed up right after I got ticketed.. again, referring to the definition in the first post, I have to be actually engaged in loading/unloading. Immediately prior and immediately after, I'm parked. :|

Whats to stop you from saying that you stopped to unload something and that passenger was in the house "delivering" what ever that something is, there has to be some type of reasonable time limit, Are they expecting you to drive up exactly when the person comes, or you drop them off, drive around the block untill they are ready then come back?

[n00bMeiSter]

Whats to stop you from saying that you stopped to unload something and that passenger was in the house "delivering" what ever that something is, there has to be some type of reasonable time limit, Are they expecting you to drive up exactly when the person comes, or you drop them off, drive around the block untill they are ready then come back?

+1

[WLS ZMZM]

long enough that the bylaw guy never saw my friend. she showed up right after I got ticketed.. again, referring to the definition in the first post, I have to be actually engaged in loading/unloading. Immediately prior and immediately after, I'm parked. :|

What I'm curious about is where you were parked are there signs showing that its a no parking zone??? Not sure if someone asked this... only reason I ask is you can plead the 5th.... my gf parked her car on the street in front of my building got a ticket and she claimed she wasn't from teh area and since tehre are no signs posted she didnt know the bylaws of the area and they knocked the $40 parking ticket down to $15

[Nevermind]

didn't read all the posts but I remember seeing signs in the city of Toronto years ago that said "no parking or standing" so there must be a difference but that was long ago and it might have changed by now?

[alhope34]

In Toronto signs are separate...

http://www.tourismgolden.com/files/imagecache/side_image_thumb/files/images.jpg

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/5873044/2/istockphoto_5873044-no-stopping-sign.jpg

http://www.drivingschool.ca/drivereducation/images/no_standing.gif

[Jeff-TheBiz]

I had a group of friends over for a barbque 2 yrs ago when I lived in Newmarket..

A cop/parking enforcement went down our street and chalked everyones tires.. as soon as he was done (we watched him do it) we went out and moved each car a foot..

[zoso]

The worst i have heard, is a co-worker of mine, The parking times on her street change in the middle of the night so up untill midnight you can park on one side of the road, then after midnight you have to park on the other side of the road

That's a cash grab if i ever saw one