PDA

View Full Version : Dirty Hit? Zdeno Chara hit on Max Pacioretty Mar 8, 2011



cwp_sedan
03-09-2011, 06:25 PM
What do you think?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jimZ1tSdPY0


In my opinion I think there should have been some repercussions to the hit. No he didn't blatantly hit him from behind, knee him or throw and open ice elbow to the head, but there was a definite shove into the stanchion with a high elbow as well.

Chara is a dirty player. He is big and everyone always uses his heigh as an excuse as to why his elbows are running into players heads. This IMO is complete BS.

That Montreal player got completely fk'd up because Chara is a dirty player.

Thrizzl3
03-09-2011, 06:31 PM
wow...

SilentJay
03-09-2011, 06:32 PM
Well, he got off scott free. That was a really late check, which normally isn't a huge deal, but Chara is a monster combined with the fact that Pacioretty went head-first into the pole really made it deadly.
Really, you can't penalize him for being huge, nor can you ask him to let up a little, but that guy is dangerous at full-tilt.

ST3ALTH
03-09-2011, 06:34 PM
what a bad hit. I think its really dirty. The puck was pushed away and then he decided to run him into the boards.

WLS ZMZM
03-09-2011, 06:37 PM
I think you guys have to look at the bigger picture, It was Chara, the guy is complete class!!! I think it was a bad judgement call but there was no malicious intent behind it. However I will admit the situation looks worse because of the bad blood between the two teams and especially with the escapades that happened last game. I think Price said it best when he said "they are the pros they should be aware of whats going on and the situation around them." What is going to be bad is since there was no punishment... what will happen in the next game.... hopefully they will still allow the game to be played properly and professionally. I dont think the hit was dirty, but it certainly looked bad.. my only thing was that Chara had his head up... and he knew roughly the angle and where he was heading.. he knew the puck passed him but continued to proceed to finish the check!!!

And as much as I am a habs fan the bottom line here is that Pacioretty isn't a big name..... so hes disposable.... had it been Ovechkin or Crosby.... Chara would have easily gotten 3 games

S.F.W.
03-09-2011, 06:48 PM
I don't think Chara intended to injure Pacioretty. Had this been a regular play into the boards, he might have received a 2 minute interference penalty. The league/arena designers are the ones at fault.

The Wolf
03-09-2011, 06:49 PM
Dirty disgusting hit. So what if the guy is 7 feet tall? The NHL needs to adopt NFL style rules. Your player is 7 feet tall? Deal with it There should be no excuse for this. Chara knew exactly what he was doing.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-09-2011, 06:52 PM
It was a late hit and definite interference, but I don't believe it was an intentionally dirty hit at all. Chara was just rubbing the player off against the boards and finishing a check, albeit by interfering. This type of play happens constantly during a hockey game, but just at different areas of the ice. I don't believe Chara was trying to drive him into the stanchion.

Hockey is a fast game and this isn't the first time something like this has happened and certainly won't be the last.

I do hope Pacioretty will be ok.

cwp_sedan
03-09-2011, 06:55 PM
It was a late hit and definite interference, but I don't believe it was an intentionally dirty hit at all. Chara was just rubbing the player off against the boards and finishing a check, albeit by interfering. This type of play happens constantly during a hockey game, but just at different areas of the ice. I don't believe Chara was trying to drive him into the stanchion.

Hockey is a fast game and this isn't the first time something like this has happened and certainly won't be the last.

I do hope Pacioretty will be ok.

Yes, he was rubbing the player out but at the last second shoves him into the stanchion. This is where I think he could have let off, and yet he didn't. Chara as well as most hockey players know where they are in the rink when they are on the ice. Chara knew exactly what he was doing. He could have held back but he didn't.

Do I think he meant to seriously injure the guy? Probably not. Did he do it though? Yes.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-09-2011, 07:00 PM
Yes, he was rubbing the player out but at the last second shoves him into the stanchion. This is where I think he could have let off, and yet he didn't. Chara as well as most hockey players know where they are in the rink when they are on the ice. Chara knew exactly what he was doing. He could have held back but he didn't.

Do I think he meant to seriously injure the guy? Probably not. Did he do it though? Yes.

I don't agree Ryan. I didn't see any intention to shove him into the stanchion. Just to shove him into the boards and stop him from skating by. I doubt very much Chara was focused on the player vs. proximity to the stanchion and then calculating his hit to ensure the two collided. It was a physical play and interference and the stanchion is unfortunate. If this play had happened anywhere else on the ice at any other time, nobody notices and cares.

Anyway, we don't need to agree, but I think the NHL got this one right.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-09-2011, 07:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs2CkEsTUnU

The Wolf
03-09-2011, 07:04 PM
I think if you watch the replay, you can see chara's head up. People need to stop accepting excuses from these animals.

Default User
03-09-2011, 07:06 PM
severe concussion and injured verterbrae

you gotta hope his family wasnt watching that hit

malfunktion
03-09-2011, 07:12 PM
severe concussion and injured verterbrae

you gotta hope his family wasnt watching that hit +1

it was way after he even poked the puck up ice. It was just too late of a hit, into too serious a spot. he knew he was gunna get caughtup there. Im sure chara didnt expect him to go down that hard but.. Chara knew that he was sending pacioretty into it.

Should be suspend + fine IMO

WLS ZMZM
03-09-2011, 07:34 PM
I think if you watch the replay, you can see chara's head up. People need to stop accepting excuses from these animals.

This was exactly my thought.... Chara had his head up.. he had a rough idea again.. I dont think it was intentional.... but David Vs. Goliath... Goliath should know better and people are right had this happened anywhere else.. it wouldnt be a big deal.. but had it happened anywhere else... the player wouldnt have hit the partition like a rag doll..... the excuses players are starting to make is getting out of hand... and the injuries are startign to pile up... whie I know Chara isn't one of these repeat offenders... he should use his size and know the limits.... and again Im sure this wasn't intentional... but at what point to start drawing the line.... the NHL has been all over the place in terms of discipline... and thats part of the problem.. until there is a respect among the players on the ice... this wont change for the better... you ask any old timer... and they will tell you the same thing hockey lacks respect!!!!

cwp_sedan
03-09-2011, 07:36 PM
I don't agree Ryan. I didn't see any intention to shove him into the stanchion. Just to shove him into the boards and stop him from skating by. I doubt very much Chara was focused on the player vs. proximity to the stanchion and then calculating his hit to ensure the two collided. It was a physical play and interference and the stanchion is unfortunate. If this play had happened anywhere else on the ice at any other time, nobody notices and cares.

Anyway, we don't need to agree, but I think the NHL got this one right.

I know we won't necessarily or even have to agree but that's why I put this thread up. :)

I do have to disagree with you Tim about him shoving Pacioretty. At 1:02 or so you can see that there was an obvious shove from Chara. He could have let him go and rode him out further down but he didn't. Just saying.

Your other video wasn't the same type of hit/result so you can't really compare the two.

Olestra
03-09-2011, 07:41 PM
Tough one to call. I didn't see any malicious intent. That didn't look like an elbow, his elbow was well below shoulder level. When I watched the video, I didn't see that coming at all.
I have to agree with Zoom Zoom boy, this play consistently happens throughout the game. Chara was doing his job and finishing the check. The announcer says you have to let him go, but ask any hockey player and you cannot let any player just take the puck and go. It was unfortunate it was timed right at the stanchion. They need to do something about the stanchion if they want to prevent this.

mleblond
03-09-2011, 07:41 PM
yeah, when they said that Chara is not a dirty player, that pissed me off. He loses his cool ALL THE TIME! And he knew and saw the board was coming and still shoved him.

There's no excuse to ruin a guy's career like that, period.

cwp_sedan
03-09-2011, 07:50 PM
1:53 shows the shove even more.

cwp_sedan
03-09-2011, 07:57 PM
Tough one to call. I didn't see any malicious intent. That didn't look like an elbow, his elbow was well below shoulder level. When I watched the video, I didn't see that coming at all.
I have to agree with Zoom Zoom boy, this play consistently happens throughout the game. Chara was doing his job and finishing the check. The announcer says you have to let him go, but ask any hockey player and you cannot let any player just take the puck and go. It was unfortunate it was timed right at the stanchion. They need to do something about the stanchion if they want to prevent this.

Please explain how he "had" to finish "that" check? That wasn't your typical mid-stride lay him out hit. I definitely understand how some of those can't be avoided mid hit, but this wasn't even a hit, it was a partial rub out. :No Homo Smiley It should have been called as interference but then Chara stepped it up and shoved him into the stanchion as they were going by.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-09-2011, 08:00 PM
I know we won't necessarily or even have to agree but that's why I put this thread up. :)

I do have to disagree with you Tim about him shoving Pacioretty. At 1:02 or so you can see that there was an obvious shove from Chara. He could have let him go and rode him out further down but he didn't. Just saying.

Your other video wasn't the same type of hit/result so you can't really compare the two.


He definately shoved Pacioretty. That isn't what I meant. The shove was part of rubbing Pacioretty out on the boards and preventing him getting by him. It was a blatant late hit and interference as Pacioretty had Chara beat otherwise and was accelerating and would have been home free. Almost any defenceman will shove a player like that when they are beaten to the outside.

This type of shove as part of a hit happens hundreds of times in a game. Usually in corners and in other parts of a rink. Unfortunately this time the stanchion was involved. It is such a stupid design in a hockey rink.

Remember, we all have the wonderful benefit of watching this hit in slow replay. The game is being played at 20mph on the ice. I think Chara knew he was hitting Pacioretty late and knew he was likely going to get a penalty. Not for one minute do I think he was trying to almost kill Pacioretty with that hit. If he was, he would have used his whole body and followed up and driven him into the stanchion. That would have been malicious. I've seen it done in more games than I care to remember, recreationally and at the professional level.

The video I attached is a different type of hit for sure, but here is why I think it is relevant. Everyone is saying Chara knew where they were on the ice and purposefully drove Pacioretty into the stanchion. Chara had a few seconds to make the play he did. In the video I attached, the player skates all the way from centre ice and lines up the player against the boards and drives him into the stanchion. He had his head up for 40ft prior to the hit and yet still hit the player and rubbed him into the stanchion. Did Koci mean to do it, or was it an accident? Which hit is worse?

mleblond
03-09-2011, 08:28 PM
priced said it perfectly... hockey is fast but 3-4 strides = a lot of time for a hockey player to think and act upon, Max was obviously gonna beat him heads up so Chara took him out, literally!

iGOzoom
03-09-2011, 08:30 PM
In my opinion, not trying to play devils advocate but I don't think he intentionally meant to cause any harm to Pacioretty. I think he intended to just "rough him up." You can tell that in the video he clearly beat Chara to the puck and it was a foot race that Pacioretty would of definitely won. I think Chara intended to shove Pacioretty in order to get to the puck before him. Either way though, like someone stated above, these are NHL players and know the rink really well. Chara knew exactly what was coming up but while in a game I don't think you take every precaution, as you do get caught up in the moment and do whatever it takes.

Back to answering the question though. Do I think Chara should be suspended? Definitely yes.

zoso
03-09-2011, 08:36 PM
The argument here is, not if it was a clean hit or not. it was not a clean hit regardless of where it happens it would be called interference

The issue is that he was hit into a very dangerous area regardless of intent

It's like saying i lifted my stick and hit a guy skating buy, it was by accident, no intent what so ever but it's a highstick. regardless of if he hit him into the stanchion or not on purpose, he still hit the guy and deserve some type of punishment , this reasoning "he didn't mean it" could be used for so many things. Compare to headshots, regardless of intent or just freak accident people get penalized for it. A mistake was made and he has to pay for it, simple

Freakzaz
03-09-2011, 08:42 PM
Some people have said that Chara looked ahead before the check and thus concluded he "planned" the hit. I'm not so sure myself but I hope it was just a real bad case of being hit at the wrong place and time. Even if Chara wasn't that massive, going at speed into a solid like that is real deadly.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-09-2011, 08:51 PM
The argument here is, not if it was a clean hit or not. it was not a clean hit regardless of where it happens it would be called interference

The issue is that he was hit into a very dangerous area regardless of intent

It's like saying i lifted my stick and hit a guy skating buy, it was by accident, no intent what so ever but it's a highstick. regardless of if he hit him into the stanchion or not on purpose, he still hit the guy and deserve some type of punishment , this reasoning "he didn't mean it" could be used for so many things. Compare to headshots, regardless of intent or just freak accident people get penalized for it. A mistake was made and he has to pay for it, simple

He did pay. He was penalized in the context of the game. He received a 5 minute interference major and a game misconduct. He already got what he deserved based on the rules of hockey.

The debate here is whether there was purposeful intent to injure, which is where suspensions come into play. The NHL ruled that Chara did not purposefully intend to injure Pacioretty. Some agree with that and others don't.

The Johal
03-09-2011, 10:39 PM
I personally dont think big Z meant for that outcome .. big Z is just that BIG he went into witht he intent to finish his check, he also stated after he wasnt looking to hurt anyone.
Its a shame but its hockey people are gonna get hurt but you never wanna see a person go down like that even if he was a hab (just kinding) and the media just blow everything up, they just need something to write about.

hoping for the best for Max!

PCLoadLetter
03-10-2011, 12:28 AM
The hit was clean. The outcome of the hit wasn't.

mazdathree3
03-10-2011, 01:12 AM
In my opinion it was just a case of 2 players being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I would say that if it was anywhere else around the boards Chara would have hit Max exactly the same way. However, those turnbuckles seriously need to be changed because this hasn't been the first time someone has been hit into it.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-10-2011, 01:35 AM
In my opinion it was just a case of 2 players being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I would say that if it was anywhere else around the boards Chara would have hit Max exactly the same way. However, those turnbuckles seriously need to be changed because this hasn't been the first time someone has been hit into it.

Yup...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfcQyGF5hqk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwC8d-7MUgA

zoso
03-10-2011, 01:49 AM
Well with Chara's git and the first video you posted, the Hit is right at the Glass pushing the guy into it.


The 2nd's one is away from the glass and the hit is done, the hitter took off and the guy is sliding into to, slightly different scenarios

bman13
03-10-2011, 02:05 AM
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/951618--nhl-could-lose-air-canada-sponsorship-media-report

mazdathree3
03-10-2011, 02:42 AM
Good move by Air Canada. Something proactive should be done now before someone potentially gets killed. Unlike the 13 year old girl that got killed in a Blue Jackets after getting hit with a puck in the stands and then the NHL decides to put up the protective mesh.

Olestra
03-10-2011, 02:49 AM
Please explain how he "had" to finish "that" check? That wasn't your typical mid-stride lay him out hit. I definitely understand how some of those can't be avoided mid hit, but this wasn't even a hit, it was a partial rub out. :No Homo Smiley It should have been called as interference but then Chara stepped it up and shoved him into the stanchion as they were going by.

Because this is a very basic and fundamental play in hockey. You don't hesitate in the middle of a hit to make sure the guy is ok to be hit before you finish your check. By that time, he'd be long gone and you would never be playing in the NHL.
Chara is skating backwards and turns with the player to complete his hit, which is clean, not from behind and not charging from a distance like most of the other videos posted here. I feel the direction of Chara's head is him focusing in on Pacioretty for the hit, which seems fair to me.

ovie8
03-10-2011, 03:03 AM
Because this is a very basic and fundamental play in hockey. You don't hesitate in the middle of a hit to make sure the guy is ok to be hit before you finish your check. By that time, he'd be long gone and you would never be playing in the NHL.
Chara is skating backwards and turns with the player to complete his hit, which is clean, not from behind and not charging from a distance like most of the other videos posted here. I feel the direction of Chara's head is him focusing in on Pacioretty for the hit, which seems fair to me.

The way the hit was delivered is clean. But the question is should Chara have even hit him to begin with? No, because the puck was already chipped ahead! Had Pacioretty been skating with the puck then the hit is fair play.

If you play contact hockey, you become well aware of your surroundings. So I'm sure Chara knew the turn buckle was there. Did he want to injure him? probably not...So it was an irresponsible hit. Should at least be fined. Kind of like careless driving...

cwp_sedan
03-10-2011, 10:27 AM
Yep, he definitely didn't mean to push his face into the stanchion...lol.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/198107_10150163129020420_571240419_8710298_5211487 _n.jpg

Slade
03-10-2011, 11:33 AM
Yep, he definitely didn't mean to push his face into the stanchion...lol.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/198107_10150163129020420_571240419_8710298_5211487 _n.jpg


LOL, I think it was a dirty hit, Chara said in one interview he didn't know where he was on the ice which is BS, if you can't tell your infront of the bench, then I don't know how he can skate.

I can't wait for 2 or 3 players to hit him at once...im sure he still wont fall though haha.

thanu31
03-10-2011, 11:59 AM
heard theres going to be police investigation on this...

cwp_sedan
03-10-2011, 12:05 PM
heard theres going to be police investigation on this...

Yeah I read this too. IMO this is pushing it. I could have seen a suspension but a criminal investigation is too much.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-10-2011, 12:07 PM
heard theres going to be police investigation on this...

Don't hold your breath. If there is an investigation, it will simply be a routine to appease the outcry. No charges will be laid. The rumours are mainly because retarded Habs fans have been dialing 911 throughout the Province of Quebec to report and complain about the Chara hit and demanding police involvement. Seriously, I am not kidding. They are tying up dedicated emergency lines for this. Sadly.

Have to love how the media, government and now corporations are jumping all over this to get extra exposure and free publicity. It is pathetic and ridiculous.

cwp_sedan
03-10-2011, 12:08 PM
It could have all been avoided with a suspension. :)

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-10-2011, 12:11 PM
It could have all been avoided with a suspension. :)

Doubtful. Everyone would have still jumped on the bandwagon regardless. ;)

Ah, and the latest stupidity. Publicity mongering much? Conflict of interest anyone?

QUEBEC CITY, Que. - Montreal police have confirmed they opened a criminal investigation into the devastating hit that placed Canadiens forward Max Pacioretty in the hospital with a cracked verterbra.

Police say they are acting on a complaint about the shot delivered by Boston Bruins captain Zdeno Chara earlier this week.

Meanwhile, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman refused to comment on the incident this morning on his way into a U.S. congressional briefing in Washington, D.C.

Bettman's previously scheduled briefing focuses on the state of hockey in America and the relationship between hockey and education and physical rehabilitation.

Montreal police say they opened the investigation after a request by Quebec's director of criminal and penal prosecutions, Louis Dionne.

A spokeswoman for Dionne said he initiated the process after seeing television footage of the incident.

He issued a recommendation to the provincial Public Security department that an investigation be opened; the department then forwarded the file to police.

cwp_sedan
03-10-2011, 12:20 PM
Doubtful. Everyone would have still jumped on the bandwagon regardless. ;)

True, but I think there would have been less of an outcry of angry fans.

I still think about how Chara could have ended this players career and there won't have been any repercussion to him. If I went out and accidentally ran over a pedestrian with my car, I would be responsible for it even though it was an "accident" or there wasn't the "intent" to hurt or harm. This should be treated the same way.

Look at Bertuzzi's situation. He is still playing and making money yet Steve Moore is done his career forever. Sad really.

FoXy
03-10-2011, 12:23 PM
Look at like 1:49... I am not sure what to believe cus it really DOES look like he had no reason to check him and really did plow him into the wall.... He didn't have to do it but he did anyway.... THAT I think is dirty. I mean if you are checking to get the puck that's one thing but for no reason?? Shady indeed.

FoXy
03-10-2011, 12:25 PM
Yep, he definitely didn't mean to push his face into the stanchion...lol.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/198107_10150163129020420_571240419_8710298_5211487 _n.jpg

I mean the pic really does say it... His hand was still on him when his face/neck is making contact with the stanchion... :( Poor guy.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-10-2011, 12:48 PM
True, but I think there would have been less of an outcry of angry fans.

I still think about how Chara could have ended this players career and there won't have been any repercussion to him. If I went out and accidentally ran over a pedestrian with my car, I would be responsible for it even though it was an "accident" or there wasn't the "intent" to hurt or harm. This should be treated the same way.

Look at Bertuzzi's situation. He is still playing and making money yet Steve Moore is done his career forever. Sad really.

The game of hockey, which is governed by a league commission with active involvement from the NHLPA and with a set of definable rules and assumptions towards risks everytime they step on the ice, cannot be directly compared to what happens in a civilian respect. If I punch someone in the face on the street, say a stupid Hab fan for instance that is dialing 911, I get charged with assault and I go to jail. If I punch that same stupid Hab fan while playing a hockey game, I receive a 5 minute major penalty and the admiration and adulation of hockey fans everywhere.

Sure, there are always boundaries and this is where the police sometimes are involved. The Bertuzzi example is one. McSorley on Brashear was another. Dino Ciccarrelli trying to chop down Luke Richardson like he was a tree is another. There have been a few more, even at the Junior level, such as Patrice Cormier. You could easily build a case that all of these examples demonstrate a very clear intent to injure and were significantly more viscious and purposeful than the Chara hit on Pacorietty. The Chara hit is significant for two reasons. One, a stanchion was involved during a routine play and two, it happened in Canada and happened in Montreal. This is the town that rioted and did millions of dollars worth of damage to their own city when Maurice Richard almost killed an opposing player and was then suspended. If this hit happened say in Phoenix with the Atlanta Thrashers playing, do you think it would be getting this attention?

The Chara hit was otherwise insignificant in terms of a hockey play, other than the obvious significance that a fine young man was severely injured as a result. It is very unfortunate, but it happens. I've seen a hell of a lot worse and with obvious intent to injure.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BJ12dpgRIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcG1tn8_hAk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNgXCohmzcM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hodb0LUALjI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT8mM4pDpBc&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz9RE9RGrVY

The Wolf
03-10-2011, 01:02 PM
These "people" are like pitbulls. How can we expect them to behave differently than what they've been taught their whole life? Every coach they've ever had since Peewee has rewarded them for trying to kill people.
The fault doesn't lie squarely on the player. Thousands of coaches and sponsors and analysts have created a culture of monsters. They condemn this behavior in one breath and praise it in another.

midnightfxgt
03-10-2011, 01:43 PM
I think he intentionally ran him into it... I dont think he meant to kill the guy though.

However, since the guy was seriously injured, there should have been a suspension. It was a dirty play, and had a worse outcome than planned.

cwp_sedan
03-10-2011, 01:45 PM
I like this quote that a friend of mine made.


I believe he had intentions to hurt him but maybe not snap his neck. However, if I punch a guy in the face in an attempt to give him a black eye and I slip and punch him in the throat and kill him. Guess what i'm still a murderer.

midnightfxgt
03-10-2011, 01:48 PM
^^^ A better way of saying what I was getting at LOL!

Mazdy
03-10-2011, 02:04 PM
I like this quote that a friend of mine made.


That quote says it all...it is so true.
That is why it was a dirty hit..and should get suspended.
If his intentions were just to hurt him he wasnt thinking about the outcome of what can happen after...so now he should be ready for the consequence.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-10-2011, 02:07 PM
These "people" are like pitbulls. How can we expect them to behave differently than what they've been taught their whole life? Every coach they've ever had since Peewee has rewarded them for trying to kill people.
The fault doesn't lie squarely on the player. Thousands of coaches and sponsors and analysts have created a culture of monsters. They condemn this behavior in one breath and praise it in another.

Ah yes, the extreme left wing argument that shifts accountability and blame from the actions of individuals onto the entire society, culture and game itself.

I'm sure the thousands of tireless volunteers throughout this country and others that contribute their time at all levels of grassroots hockey and do so for the pure love of the game, would appreciate being painted with this same brushstroke. Bravo.

Here, let this guy...
http://nationalpostsports.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/cherry.jpg?w=620
award you one of these nice buttons.
http://warrenkinsella.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/LeftiePinko1.jpg

Iceman_F1
03-10-2011, 02:09 PM
Interesting take everyone has on it. I will admit there should be standards in regards to injuries (intentional/non-intentional) resulting from hits where it was a "bad hit". But until that happens, I think the NHL made the right call based on the rules. Just wrong place/wrong time. The strength of the push didn't seem that bad. It just seemed like he was obviously guided to that area based on their trajectory and the speed they were going is the major difference.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-10-2011, 02:41 PM
I like this quote that a friend of mine made.

"I believe he had intentions to hurt him but maybe not snap his neck. However, if I punch a guy in the face in an attempt to give him a black eye and I slip and punch him in the throat and kill him. Guess what i'm still a murderer."


That quote says it all...it is so true.
That is why it was a dirty hit..and should get suspended.
If his intentions were just to hurt him he wasnt thinking about the outcome of what can happen after...so now he should be ready for the consequence.

Ok, so using this logic, here are a few theoretical questions for you.

Two hockey players are in a fight. One punches the other and the receiving player falls back, smashes his head on the ice and after a prolonged coma, this player dies. Does the other player go to jail for manslaughter or murder?

MMA fight. A fighter accidentally breaks the neck of the other fighter during a submission hold and the other fighter dies. Should they be charged with murder or manslaughter? If the fighter was only paralyzed and becomes a quadraplegic, what is imposed then?

Boxing Match. A heavyweight knocks out another boxer and he suffers brain damage and becomes a vegetable, but doesn't die. Should the other boxer be charged with grevious assault?

Formula One Race. Two drivers go down a staight side by side at 200mph into a sweeping high speed corner. Neither driver backs down and going into the corner the front wheels of each car touch as they battle for position and one car goes airbourne into a wall. The driver is killed instantly when a metal rod from his tire penetrates his helmet visor and turns his head into a shish-kabob. Should the other driver be charged with manslaughter and/or murder?

Professional athletes sign waivers that assume associated risks with their given profession. They are governed by the rules of their professions and the associated leagues and governing bodies of these leagues. For the most part, they are also richly rewarded for their participation and the risks they assume. Once you start moving into the realm of government and other authorities becoming the management of such scenario's you start creating a precedent. Where does the precedent end and where do you draw the line?

cwp_sedan
03-10-2011, 02:57 PM
"I believe he had intentions to hurt him but maybe not snap his neck. However, if I punch a guy in the face in an attempt to give him a black eye and I slip and punch him in the throat and kill him. Guess what i'm still a murderer."



Ok, so using this logic, here are a few theoretical questions for you.

Two hockey players are in a fight. One punches the other and the receiving player falls back, smashes his head on the ice and after a prolonged coma, this player dies. Does the other player go to jail for manslaughter or murder?

MMA fight. A fighter accidentally breaks the neck of the other fighter during a submission hold and the other fighter dies. Should they be charged with murder or manslaughter? If the fighter was only paralyzed and becomes a quadraplegic, what is imposed then?

Boxing Match. A heavyweight knocks out another boxer and he suffers brain damage and becomes a vegetable, but doesn't die. Should the other boxer be charged with grevious assault?

Formula One Race. Two drivers go down a staight side by side at 200mph into a sweeping high speed corner. Neither driver backs down and going into the corner the front wheels of each car touch as they battle for position and one car goes airbourne into a wall. The driver is killed instantly when a metal rod from his tire penetrates his helmet visor and turns his head into a shish-kabob. Should the other driver be charged with manslaughter and/or murder?

Professional athletes sign waivers that assume associated risks with their given profession. They are governed by the rules of their professions and the associated leagues and governing bodies of these leagues. For the most part, they are also richly rewarded for their participation and the risks they assume. Once you start moving into the realm of government and other authorities becoming the management of such scenario's you start creating a precedent. Where does the precedent end and where do you draw the line?

This is a quick reply because I am busy at work.

The quote was just something to help clarify that even though he didn't mean to seriously injure him, he is still responsible for his actions whether if not criminally, he is within the league.

I do agree that that legal action does not apply in this case and should not. This is an internal ordeal that should be dealt with in a proper manner. This is why the organizations like the NHL need to discipline players like this. If they just keep letting it go they will never end up dealing with head shots or dirty players.

Boxing and MMA don't apply because the main objective in the sport "IS" to hurt the other player. Racing isn't a contact sport so typically there wouldn't even be a concern unless there was direct concern that there was intent to injure during a crash, etc.

I know we are trying to compare it to other sports but every sport has it's own rules and way of play.

Mazdy
03-10-2011, 02:57 PM
@ Zoom Zoom Boy

Ok...All those things makes sense and i can see the logic in there...

But im just wondering all the situations that u said are accident wise..actions that were never meant to happen because theyre just doing what they do..

But in this situation of the body check on Max...he was "intentionally" trying to hurt him...and as a result of that caused in a serious injury..
Isnt this another story?

Iceman_F1
03-10-2011, 02:58 PM
"I believe he had intentions to hurt him but maybe not snap his neck. However, if I punch a guy in the face in an attempt to give him a black eye and I slip and punch him in the throat and kill him. Guess what i'm still a murderer."



Ok, so using this logic, here are a few theoretical questions for you.

Two hockey players are in a fight. One punches the other and the receiving player falls back, smashes his head on the ice and after a prolonged coma, this player dies. Does the other player go to jail for manslaughter or murder?

MMA fight. A fighter accidentally breaks the neck of the other fighter during a submission hold and the other fighter dies. Should they be charged with murder or manslaughter? If the fighter was only paralyzed and becomes a quadraplegic, what is imposed then?

Boxing Match. A heavyweight knocks out another boxer and he suffers brain damage and becomes a vegetable, but doesn't die. Should the other boxer be charged with grevious assault?

Formula One Race. Two drivers go down a staight side by side at 200mph into a sweeping high speed corner. Neither driver backs down and going into the corner the front wheels of each car touch as they battle for position and one car goes airbourne into a wall. The driver is killed instantly when a metal rod from his tire penetrates his helmet visor and turns his head into a shish-kabob. Should the other driver be charged with manslaughter and/or murder?

Professional athletes sign waivers that assume associated risks with their given profession. They are governed by the rules of their professions and the associated leagues and governing bodies of these leagues. For the most part, they are also richly rewarded for their participation and the risks they assume. Once you start moving into the realm of government and other authorities becoming the management of such scenario's you start creating a precedent. Where does the precedent end and where do you draw the line?

So glad you brought up F1! Reminded me of the quote by Ayrton Senna...you could put this kind of thinking into any professional sport and it sums it up nicely. Though your last paragraph works nicely too...


Ayrton Senna : By being a racing driver you are under risk all the time. By being a racing driver means you are racing with other people. And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing, competing to win. And the main motivation is to compete for victory, it's not to come 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. I race to win as long as I feel it's possible. Sometimes you get it wrong? Sure, it's impossible to get it right all the time. But I race designed to win, as long as I feel I'm doing it right.

By the quotes logic, we can assume Chara (or any other Defense in that kind of similar situation) would see that if they let up, they would be beat and potentially cost the team. Thus they "finish the check" even if it would have resulted in a penalty. Just happened to be in a bad place on the ice.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-10-2011, 03:10 PM
This is a quick reply because I am busy at work.

The quote was just something to help clarify that even though he didn't mean to seriously injure him, he is still responsible for his actions whether if not criminally, he is within the league.

I do agree that that legal action does not apply in this case and should not. This is an internal ordeal that should be dealt with in a proper manner. This is why the organizations like the NHL need to discipline players like this. If they just keep letting it go they will never end up dealing with head shots or dirty players.

Boxing and MMA don't apply because the main objective in the sport "IS" to hurt the other player. Racing isn't a contact sport so typically there wouldn't even be a concern unless there was direct concern that there was intent to injure during a crash, etc.

I know we are trying to compare it to other sports but every sport has it's own rules and way of play.

I know what you were trying to say Ryan, but it is just such a thin, thin line. Which is why I listed those other examples. For instance, when two hockey players line-up to fight each other, there is clear intent to hurt their opponent. Same with some hitting that is clearly not just an intent to seperate player from puck.

In racing, there is plenty of contact and some of it is purposeful to intimidate and try to make the other driver back-off.

Anyway, we have diverging opinions on the Chara hit and that's cool. I just hate seeing the game dragged through this mockery that is happening in the press now.


@ Zoom Zoom Boy

Ok...All those things makes sense and i can see the logic in there...

But im just wondering all the situations that u said are accident wise..actions that were never meant to happen because theyre just doing what they do..

But in this situation of the body check on Max...he was "intentionally" trying to hurt him...and as a result of that caused in a serious injury..
Isnt this another story?

The key here is that not everyone agrees Chara was trying to hurt Pacorietty. I think he was trying to hit him and rub him off balance against the boards to prevent him from blowing past him, but did not intend to hurt him. You see this play all the time without these consequences. Watch Phaneuf or Schenn in a game where they pinch on the point and a player beats them with speed to the outside, they all will reach out to push or impede the player from getting a clean breakaway. All defencemen worth their salt at the NHL level will make that exact play at that exact time (except maybe Kaberle. LOL. :) ). Just usually a stanchion is not involved and the consequences are not so dire.


So glad you brought up F1! Reminded me of the quote by Ayrton Senna...you could put this kind of thinking into any professional sport and it sums it up nicely. Though your last paragraph works nicely too...

Thanks. BTW- and you probably know this. The example I listed has similiarities to how Aryton Senna died. May he RIP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSza9gvE6I0&feature=related

cwp_sedan
03-10-2011, 03:31 PM
I know what you were trying to say Ryan, but it is just such a thin, thin line. Which is why I listed those other examples. For instance, when two hockey players line-up to fight each other, there is clear intent to hurt their opponent. Same with some hitting that is clearly not just an intent to seperate player from puck.

In racing, there is plenty of contact and some of it is purposeful to intimidate and try to make the other driver back-off.

Anyway, we have diverging opinions on the Chara hit and that's cool. I just hate seeing the game dragged through this mockery that is happening in the press now.

Yeah we could definitely go back and forth all day on this. Every situation has it's own angle and a good debate is always good. We know the Sedan>Hatch debate never gets anywhere because well we both know which is better seeedddaaaannnn. Hopefully Pacioretty is ok after all of this.

The Wolf
03-10-2011, 03:55 PM
Ah yes, the extreme left wing argument that shifts accountability and blame from the actions of individuals onto the entire society, culture and game itself.

I'm sure the thousands of tireless volunteers throughout this country and others that contribute their time at all levels of grassroots hockey and do so for the pure love of the game, would appreciate being painted with this same brushstroke. Bravo.

Here, let this guy...
http://nationalpostsports.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/cherry.jpg?w=620
award you one of these nice buttons.
http://warrenkinsella.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/LeftiePinko1.jpg

I lyk ur big pictrs lawl

mleblond
03-10-2011, 03:58 PM
next thing you know players will require actual helmets and hans device...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Hans_-_head_and_neck_safety_system.svg/300px-Hans_-_head_and_neck_safety_system.svg.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device

cwp_sedan
03-10-2011, 04:22 PM
next thing you know players will require actual helmets and hans device...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Hans_-_head_and_neck_safety_system.svg/300px-Hans_-_head_and_neck_safety_system.svg.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device

:chuckle

WLS ZMZM
03-10-2011, 04:54 PM
Well seems this just keeps getting better.... now you have Air Canada threatening to pull their sponsor ship of the NHL and Tim Hortons starting to do the same thing.... if thats the case.... That will suck cuz we will lose the Heritage Classic.... and since the NHL doesn't feel the need to do a Winter Classic in Canada then we lose our outdoor game!!! I would like to see what Cherry has to say about it.... (especially since its a Boston Bruin player!!), I think Bob Mckenzie said it best.. it may not have been intentional but it warranted at least 1-2 game suspension......

Nevermind
03-10-2011, 05:31 PM
If you view the video of the hit look at Chara's arms going up into Max face and shoulders, if Chara had let up a little and not push Max into the boards this would not have happened. He knew they were close to the turn buckle. Chara could still have been near him too slow him down. Finidh the check is a cop out. Boston was loosing at the time so why would Chara take a chance of an interference penalty and putting his team further into a hole. Idiot. It was intent cause Chara is a player who gets even, seen it before with him. I think a lot of players will not bad mouth the league as I think they are told by management not to so they skip around the situation. Don Cherry is the same he will say it was OK and its part of the game and an unfortunate accident. Maybe those turn buckles should be made to break-give way when hit, just a thought. But it would hold up the game waiting for repairs to be done.

Mr Wilson
03-10-2011, 06:12 PM
^^^Patches was pretty much past Chara and would have been home free, he (Chara) does not and did not have enough speed to let him by and then catch up to defend. He had to limit Patches' forward movement though the end result was awful. Why take chance on a penelty? they do this all the time. If a guy is out in the open and about to receive the puck they are often interferred, hooked, etc, etc. You may or may not have prevented a sure goal and at least during a 5 on 4 they may not score (the risk is better). It's a tough call, Chara was high on him, though as mentioned any other NHL defensemen would do the same (except for Aki Berg). If this was a period before nothing would have happened, to be honest I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.

For "show" purposes maybe Chara should have gotten something more.

Olestra
03-10-2011, 06:52 PM
Another thing to point out, watch the beginning of the video and notice the clock at the top right corner. Consider the amount of time between Pacioretty touching the puck and hitting the stanchion. This all happens quite quickly, so to be able to plan that in so little time seems pretty unlikely. Hockey is a fast game. It's far easier to make judgement calls when you watch a slow mo replay.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-13-2011, 12:13 PM
Last night's game. Same type of play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YXoLj-fm4k&feature=related

Aitch
03-13-2011, 02:22 PM
Sorry, I'm way behind on the discussion in this thread so I haven't read everyone's comments. I finally saw the Chara hit yesterday, and I was completely disgusted by it and the NHL's reaction to it. Numerous other players have quietly confirmed that they almost always are at least roughly aware of where they are, so Chara should have known approximately where the stanchions were. Sure, its a fairly normal check but there was at least some (if not a lot) of disregard for the other player's safety. The players know they are going to play a risky game, but there is no reason that the NHL should continue to turn a blind eye to this problem when people are getting seriously injured, and we know that even regular hits can have a damaging effect on a player's brain later in life (see recent deaths of middle-aged ex-NHLers, with proven brain trauma).

There is no reason why the NHL shouldn't aggressively set standards that regulate how players treat each other on the ice. It is a dangerous game but the NHL should have a responsibility to set the level of danger players are exposed to, to protect their health - both immediately and later in life. The NFL does it, F1 does it, even NASCAR does it. The game today is light-years away from how it was originally played, and there is no reason the NHL can't continue to refine things in the name of player safety. Its the only humane thing to do.

Given the number of disgusting headshots this year, the injuries that have resulted, and the league's persistent refusal to do anything meaningful about almost any of them, I'm officially done with the NHL until something changes. I was that repulsed by watching Chara's hit, knowing that he didn't get ANY punishment, and that the same thing has been happening around the league this year (even after the heightened awareness of the issue in the past two seasons).

Derek13
03-13-2011, 02:34 PM
If you have ever played compeditive hockey, everone takes there turn smoking the glass edge, it sucks but its a part of the rink. I even hit it being tripped up by my own team mate during a practice and I was a goalie.

Aitch
03-13-2011, 02:41 PM
No, I get that, however I still don't think Chara had to finish the hit as if the stanchion wasn't there. And to me its all part of a larger culture of unwillingness to change on the NHL's part which bothers me so much. Hell, the fact that Bettman basically told Air Canada to STFU when they complained about the situation shows their typical self-righteousness about the whole thing.

Zoom Zoom Boy
03-13-2011, 02:52 PM
Aitch,

You're entitled to your opinion of course. However, as I've said before and will say for the last time, this is a very common hockey play that has been happening for years. This only received the attention it did because it happened in Canada and in Montreal in particular.

They real issue is the design of the rink and the design of the stanchion. If any one good thing comes out of all of this over-reaction media bandwagon nonsense, it will be uniform legislation from the NHL and NHLPA on the type of glass, supports and the design of the stanchions in all NHL buildings. Currently, none of this is uniformly mandated. They need to do a better job of making the environment as safe as possible for the players.

Although I don't always agree with him, in this case, this guy was spot on the money last night.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXOKlH6rmx8

Aitch
03-13-2011, 03:10 PM
Aitch,

You're entitled to your opinion of course. However, as I've said before and will say for the last time, this is a very common hockey play that has been happening for years. This only received the attention it did because it happened in Canada and in Montreal in particular.

They real issue is the design of the rink and the design of the stanchion. If any one good thing comes out of all of this over-reaction media bandwagon nonsense, it will be uniform legislation from the NHL and NHLPA on the type of glass, supports and the design of the stanchions in all NHL buildings. Currently, none of this is uniformly mandated. They need to do a better job of making the environment as safe as possible for the players.

Although I don't always agree with him, in this case, this guy was spot on the money last night.


I can't disagree that the stanchion design can be at fault, not only in this arena but as an area that has the potential to cause injury in any rink. My bigger issue is still with the NHL's overall attitude. Design issues aside, I think that they still need to do a lot more to convince the players to treat each other better.

woodsball_delight
03-13-2011, 05:15 PM
doughty situation was much different than the chara hit. doughty was in on a play and thats where they ended up going with the hit. chara intentionally pushed max into it, and as seen in the picture ensured that was where he went. exactly as other pointed out, you cant use your size consistently as an excuse as to why other players are getting injured, or for where your hands and elbows seem to line up with others.

ive always hated chara, hes a piece of crap. he should be suspended, the glass should be redesigned, and set an example for further punishment. the league *****foots around this. there should be a set in stone rule which cant be argued. if you hit someones head or make an intentional intent to injure, then you are going to be suspended and have higher fines than $3000 for players who make millions annually. its a joke