Snotrocket's Tuning/Logs

[Snotrocket]

At Fabio's recommendation i've decided to start my own thread of logs and tuning issues. Thought i would start by posting tonights first two logs on the stage 2 map :D

Stage 2 CS+TIH+93 V100B

All looks good but other opinions are encouraged. Thanks :D

Also Fabio i forgot what values you suggested i log when i was out so i just used the same ones...

[Fobio]

first off...it's Fobio... =)

AFR's looks good as per Cobb OTS maps' safe calibrations...

your MAF g/s looks good...I think there are some intake flow improvements done with the Gen2's, and looks slightly better than a comparably modded Gen1...what was the ambient/outside temp when you logged?

FP looks nice. Must be satisfying from the 4hr DIY.

slight knock at boost spike/on-set could be due to traction issue. it also looks like you lifted prior to the end of the log in the 2nd one.

the other parameters to log as well are "Accel Pedal", "Intake Temp", "Boost Air Temp".

You can remove LTFT and STFT, assuming your MAF is already properly calibrated. These won't matter for WOT runs anyway. you can also remove Throttle Pos'n. 99% on the "Accel Pedal" indicates you're WOT.

This is a sample log...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5304/5563701500_cf34229160_b.jpg

[Snotrocket]

Fobio, my apologizes... I read things to quickly! Thank you for the reply.. I'll do some more logs with the other values when i get some free time.. thanks again! Do i need to worry about that knock? Also should i be concerned that i dont seem to be hitting target boost?

[Sean80]

I think 1-step colder plugs can help eliminate knock. I put the Denso IVT 22's in mine and they work very nice.

[Fobio]

Fobio, my apologizes... I read things to quickly! Thank you for the reply.. I'll do some more logs with the other values when i get some free time.. thanks again! Do i need to worry about that knock? Also should i be concerned that i dont seem to be hitting target boost?

Gen1 OTS Stg2+ map calls for 19psi, +/- 1.5psi...if that's what your map calls for, then you're very near there and the local temps might be why you aren't hitting boost...a little warmer and you might be spot on...and then summer, you might spike a little.

Do a few more logs and we'll see how the knock is...

[Snotrocket]

ok will do thanks.. i'll try and get a few logs with the slightly warmer weather ahead.. It was probably below zero C when i took these logs.

[Snotrocket]

There wasnt a pedal position option as far as i could see... The first log seems to look pretty good WOT.. But then i noticed i was getting some knock at very ginger acceleration.. Any thoughts why that is? Is it a concern?

[fywdyl]

I don't think that knock is a huge cause for concern. It doesn't last very long and it's less than 1 degree. But like Sean80 said, it should go away with new plugs.

[Snotrocket]

When does knock become a concern?

[BlueStreak]

Knock becomes a concern when the following conditions are met:
- The engine is under high load (i.e. you're going WOT or close to it).
- Knock retard is above 1 degree.

You will experience alot of KR when cruising on the highway at 110+km/h as the ECU tries to add as much timing as possible to improve fuel economy. As the engine starts to knock, the ECU will pull timing until knock disappears, then it'll repeat the process all over again. This is normal and is not detrimental to the engine under light loads.

[fywdyl]

Either sustained knock, like more than a blip, or anything above 1* would be a cause for concern. You can find some of this info on the COBB website/forums.

If you check out my logs, I've got some pretty bad knock, so levels like that may be a cause for concern.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

datalog 22 looks like part throttle knock, based on the boost and wgdc readings. you shouldn't be concerned with that.

KR at WOT >1 is when you start becoming concerned.

[Tokay444]

Either sustained knock, like more than a blip, or anything above 1* would be a cause for concern. You can find some of this info on the COBB website/forums.

If you check out my logs, I've got some pretty bad knock, so levels like that may be a cause for concern.Yes, but only at high load/WOT

[Fobio]

Yes, but only at high load/WOT

but he (fywdyl) was also in 3rd gear where traction may have been an issue, his (fywdyl's) 4th gear logs look much better.

[Snotrocket]

but he (fywdyl) was also in 3rd gear where traction may have been an issue, his (fywdyl's) 4th gear logs look much better.

Yes I was looking at his logs... I'm quite happy with mine. :)

[fywdyl]

Ha ha, great! I've become the crappy standard.

[Fobio]

Yes I was looking at his logs... I'm quite happy with mine. :)

yes, your datalog21 file looks about right!

[Snotrocket]

Ha ha, great! I've become the crappy standard.

Lol! Your logs make me feel good ;)

[Snotrocket]

So I have recently just started reading threads on ATR tuning in hopes to learn enough to start changing some values. My first goal is to lower boost in my first two gears to improve traction. Anyone come across any good threads on the matter or able to offer some helpful tips?

[fywdyl]

I'm at the same stage as you. I think you can use the APP translation tables to achieve what you're doing. Instead of limiting the boost, you limit the pedal translation and thus you boost less.

[Fobio]

it's currently somewhat frustrating that "boost tuning" is still dependent on your "load tune"...this doesn't help us get thru the most tedious part of tuning this car on the street.

how are you two finding using a flat TRL table and tuning WGDC to compensate?

also, Dnao uses the APP tables, but since we're still load dependent...guess what! ;)

try using the TRL 1st and TRL 2nd...

[fywdyl]

The flat TRL table didn't work very well for me, so I ended up tweaking the load and now I'm happy w/ my tune.

[Fobio]

The flat TRL table didn't work very well for me, so I ended up tweaking the load and now I'm happy w/ my tune.

it's hard to describe to the guys that haven't load tuned the car...but let me try.

after driving the car for a bit, you get a feel for what you like and don't like...combine that with the knowledge of some of the danger zones for load and boost, and after adjusting as much as you're comfortable with your own driving style, you'll get a sense of where you want power and how to make it...sounds simple enough?...lol...

I went into ATR and went ass backwards and adjusted load first...then realized it's causing me to over/underboost...played with WGDC and then swapped the whole boost control system (EBCS and WGA), and had to start from square one....I'm sure you guys have checked out my thread on MSF.org.

You basically should start with a load curve that is appropriate and smooth. Knowing the 2800 to 3500 range as being the "danger zone" from the early days, I targeted and then made peak trq @ 4000rpm...I might give up a bit of peak trq numbers, but for what I do and where I drive the car hard on the track, it was fine for me. the ramp up is smooth, taper is smooth.

With the stock turbo, and stock BCS, 2.0 SHOULD = 20psi...I have slight variances all across the RPM range due to my WGA being preloaded, and my target boost being around that threahold, I also had boost oscillations @ WOT. thus I went above that ~17psi preload and tuned for 20psi.

I won't post the actual figures because I don't want EVEN the chance of someone blowing due to copying my numbers....but here's the curve which I hope will help you guys. TRL 4th - Norm BAT

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5042&d=1306362040

TRL 1st - Norm BAT

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5044&d=1306363564

TRL 2nd - Norm BAT

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5043&d=1306363564

[Snotrocket]

Could use a bit of help with short forms lol.. TRL? WGA (Waist gate actuator or something?), EBCS (Electronic Boost Control System) Sorry im reading alot of stuff starting tonight but i just want to make sure i have the right terms...

[Fobio]

TRL = "Throtle - Req. Load - x Gear" tables

WGA = wastegate actuator

EBCS = Electronic Boost Control Selenoid

For reference, this is a thread posted on MSF on the acronyms...I did not author it:

A Noob's Guide to Tuning Acronyms (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f9/noobs-guide-tuning-acronyms-79573/)

[Snotrocket]

great thanks.. im all learned up... Also reading http://www.accessecu.com/support/docs/tuningguide/AccessTUNER_HelpFile_MAZDASPEED.pdf but its been a lot over my head thus far. Looking forward to this Fobio's tuning 101.

[fywdyl]

Hey Snotrocket, have you updated your maps to v101 or are you still on v100?

[Snotrocket]

Hey i just downloaded 101... what are the differences?

[fywdyl]

I think they changed the CL/OL transition and the throttle seems to be smoother. Not sure about the Stg 2 maps, but at least the Stg 1 maps are that way.

[Snotrocket]

So today i was completely out of gas and had to fuel up at a station that only carried 91oct.. I decided not to reflash my ECU with the 91 oct map and just monitor my KR at WOT. To my surprise there was no knock after several pulls including a 5th gear WOT pull (log attached). My question is if i'm not getting any knock with the lower oct fuel is it ok to continue to run WOT occasionally?

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/log.jpg

[BlueStreak]

Kind've hard to tell as you didn't take it up to redline. I would expect BATs to keep increasing as you reached 6700 RPM so there is a chance you may knock. That being said, you are running an ideal AFR for 91 octane meaning that your fueling is rich enough to do its part in preventing KR.

[Snotrocket]

Thank you Blue...

i took a few pulls to redline.. no knock... I guess increasing intake temps might effect things?

[BlueStreak]

Correct.

Because you are running a 93 Octane map, your boost is higher and timing is more aggressive than a similar 91 Octane map. Your fueling is pretty rich so it is doing its part in keeping things safe(r). With warmer intake temps, the chances of knock do increase given hotter BATs due to higher IATs and the added boost.

That being said, I cannot say with certainty that you will never knock or will eventually knock given your setup. Its up to you to datalog and feel comfortable with what you've done and make the call yourself.

[Fobio]

^^^ I agree with what bluestreak says about running rich MAY help knock, but I'd assert that the increased timing of a 93 OTS map by Cobb is also safe enough to run 91 anyway. We are getting nitty-gritty here, but from my experience, Cobb's OTS timing are on the conservative side...they also account for a wider variance of gasoline quality than we experience here in TO.

Would I recommend someone running a 93 map to run 91 gas? NO.

But on occasions, I have ran 91 gas on my 93 tune without issues, but I also wouldn't do WOT pulls and go tracking with it; reasoning is, if I'm not putting in 93, I'm also not asking the most from the car either...so it's prolly "take it easy" time anyway.

[Snotrocket]

Ya up by my cottage they dont carry anything over 91... Maybe i'll just flash with the 91 map.

I did try and tweak another map last night to lower loads in the first two gears so i'm not shredding through so much rubber. I did this and gave it a try but to be honest i didn't really notice any difference. Is it just because i didn't come down enough (1.6 in the highlighted red areas) or did i do something wrong? Map and Logs attached.

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/snotrocket.png
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/datalimit.jpg

[rfinkle2]

Hello guys... I didn't even know that this forum existed.

Glad to see Bluestreak and Fobio as well as Snotrocket getting things iron out.

You may need to use the APP tables snotrocket, to control the power in 1st and 2nd gear.

The table adjustments I asked you to make must not have an (or enough) of an effect to control your power.

I believe the other guys have more experience with the APP tables than I do, so I yield to them for suggestions.

[BlueStreak]

Yeah, you're better off using the APP translation tables to limit power in 1st and 2nd gears as stated by rfinkle2. Because you have to cut alot of power in 1st a 2nd, using the TRL X Gear Tables to do so will rely heavily on the load dynamics table to manage power. Even then, you may not get to your optimal load values without modifying the load dynamics table.

Welcome to TM3 rfinkle2 :-)

/end threadjack

[Fobio]

welcome finkle!

snotrocket: you still boost tuning?

[Snotrocket]

thats the only thing i have ever changed in ATR (those loads) after it was suggested by rfinkle... so im still not officially tuning until after i attend this seminar you guys are planning. Hopefully soon :)

[Snotrocket]

So today I stated with a few small and basic perimeter changes in hopes to start this tuning process. What i did was take the Stage 2 CS+TIH 91 V102 and lean out the AFR by only a small amount at WOT and start there. I also set up Flat foot shifting/LC. After flashing the map I took the car for a few WOT runs on the high way while heading to the cottage. Everything seemed fine in 4th 5th and 6th. What i did notice was accelerating at WOT on the highway in 1st 2nd and 3rd i would get what looked to be a boost cut in the first 3 gears. You could hear blow off every time the car stuttered. The logs are showing the throttle cutting back even though it was WOT the whole time. Any ideas? Oh and traction control was switched off.

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/cuts.jpg

[Fobio]

So today I stated with a few small and basic perimeter changes in hopes to start this tuning process. What i did was take the Stage 2 CS+TIH 91 V102 and lean out the AFR by only a small amount at WOT and start there. I also set up Flat foot shifting/LC. After flashing the map I took the car for a few WOT runs on the high way while heading to the cottage. Everything seemed fine in 4th 5th and 6th. What i did notice was accelerating at WOT on the highway in 1st 2nd and 3rd i would get what looked to be a boost cut in the first 3 gears. You could hear blow off every time the car stuttered. The logs are showing the throttle cutting back even though it was WOT the whole time. Any ideas? Oh and traction control was switched off.

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/cuts.jpg

your IAT's and BAT's are quite high in this log...you actually got 100 WGDC, which is pretty intereting since I've ever seen 99's...and when it maxed out.

you boost tuning? did you check the box under Advanced Parameters?

[Snotrocket]

your IAT's and BAT's are quite high in this log...you actually got 100 WGDC, which is pretty intereting since I've ever seen 99's...and when it maxed out.

you boost tuning? did you check the box under Advanced Parameters?

Ive seen 100% in some of my previous logs with just stage 2 maps so that isnt much different for me. Yes i am boost tuning and the box is checked. Would high temps cause cut?

[Snotrocket]

for example

[Fobio]

for example

I notice in your previous logs, your wgdc tables were pretty low while hitting your targets. what changed?

did you get to follow some of the v102 tuning tips from Cobb re: WGDC tuning? I think you may have to retune your WGDC from the ground up....you were hitting your targets before.

[Snotrocket]

I notice in your previous logs, your wgdc tables were pretty low while hitting your targets. what changed?

did you get to follow some of the v102 tuning tips from Cobb re: WGDC tuning? I think you may have to retune your WGDC from the ground up....you were hitting your targets before.

Thanks Fobio.

Thus far I haven't touched any wgdc tables at all. The log I just posted from before was v101 93 octane. This is v102 91 octane with slightly leaner AFR tables so I guess its a poor comparison. The WGDC are still to complex for me to fully understand and modify at the moment. I'm going to get into reading Cobb help file again now that I've been to your discussion in hopes it's a bit easier to understand now.

[Fobio]

Chk this out:

ATR Resolution to Oddities Reported with the Pressure-Based Boost Tuning Calibrations (http://www.cobbforums.com/forums/showthread.php?70970-ATR-Resolution-to-Oddities-Reported-with-the-Pressure-Based-Boost-Tuning-Calibrations)

Also, it's very likely your level of power mods is completely overwhelming your TMIC. This hot weather just exposes it.

[Snotrocket]

I am hitting 100% quite frequently in high RPM during my logs.. Ive been reading that this means i am overworking my turbo... Could this be because i am catless?

[Fobio]

I am hitting 100% quite frequently in high RPM during my logs.. Ive been reading that this means i am overworking my turbo... Could this be because i am catless?

That's the gist of what we shared on Sat....and that your EBCS is providing a sort of failsafe. My concern tho is that you were hitting targets before with much lower WGDC.

try this...zero-out the WGD - Load Error Correction table. remember, you technically should have your load (TRL tables) set to within 0.05 of your target.

[Snotrocket]

Thanks Fobio. I am a slow learner when it comes to stuff this technical so forgive me for the redundant questions. I also scared the crap out of myself today playing with the Throttle Tables lol. Somehow i tripped an APP CEL that cut all power from my car and didnt allow me to exceed 10 MPH lol. Anyway i got that sorted out and am now trying to be slightly more cautious.

Just the left side of the wastegate load duty error comp. correct?

[Fobio]

Thanks Fobio. I am a slow learner when it comes to stuff this technical so forgive me for the redundant questions. I also scared the crap out of myself today playing with the Throttle Tables lol. Somehow i tripped an APP CEL that cut all power from my car and didnt allow me to exceed 10 MPH lol. Anyway i got that sorted out and am now trying to be slightly more cautious.

Just the left side of the wastegate load duty error comp. correct?

Don't worry about the TRL tables for now.

I'd zero out that whole WGD - LEC table...always double check. Be safe.

[Snotrocket]

After much tinkering i have come up with a map i am quite happy with :D Maybe a small amount of knock i will focus on tuning out as im sure higher temps may make things worse but otherwise what a difference!! :D If anyone would be able to take a quick look at the MAP in ATR PM your email and i'll send it. Just want to make sure everything looks safe. Appreciate any and all input.. Thanks!

EDIT: I am having problems while launching though. I am experiencing WOT cuts through second gear. But if i start in second and go WOT it doesnt seem to be a problem. How long does it take for the car to fully adapt to a specific map? Could this be part of the issue?

[MajesticBlueNTO]

for those that like graphs

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5732/snotrocket4thlog.jpg

and a Virtual Dyno (http://www.bradbarnhill.com/projects/VirtualDyno/) dynojet comparison:

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/4961/snotrocketvirtualdyno4t.jpg

Have you done a MAF calibration yet?

one other thing, while you're tuning, log "Commanded AFR/Equivalence Ratio" (it'll be one of those parameters in the AP). by doing so, you can see if your car is hitting the targeted AFR. once you have confirmed that AFR is dialed in, you can remove it from the log list.

[Snotrocket]

I didn't do a MAF Calibration no. I never had any issues as far as I knew so I didn't Bother. LTFT all seem to be with in +-8 during normal driving. Those charts are pretty cool. Might need a seminar on excel lol. Tried to do that before and made a big ol mess of them haha. Why is it so much different then my actual dyno numbers?

[BlueStreak]

After much tinkering i have come up with a map i am quite happy with :D Maybe a small amount of knock i will focus on tuning out as im sure higher temps may make things worse but otherwise what a difference!! :D If anyone would be able to take a quick look at the MAP in ATR PM your email and i'll send it. Just want to make sure everything looks safe. Appreciate any and all input.. Thanks!

EDIT: I am having problems while launching though. I am experiencing WOT cuts through second gear. But if i start in second and go WOT it doesnt seem to be a problem. How long does it take for the car to fully adapt to a specific map? Could this be part of the issue?

I definitely see an opportunity to unlock some more power. Your throttle isn't fully open until 6000RPM and your boost curve is super super conservative.

If it were me, I would perform a MAF calibration if I saw a +/-8% variance in LTFTs. That's quite a big difference when it comes to metering proper fueling at redline as it can make a difference of up to 20g/s in mass airflow.

[Fobio]

RE: cuts in 2nd...what kinda BPV are you running?

[Snotrocket]

RE: cuts in 2nd...what kinda BPV are you running?

Stock




If it were me, I would perform a MAF calibration if I saw a +/-8% variance in LTFTs. That's quite a big difference when it comes to metering proper fueling at redline as it can make a difference of up to 20g/s in mass airflow.

Alright i'll give that a try today. Thanks

Also, i had to lower my WGDC in high RPM to avoid over work of the turbo as prior logs read 100% WGDC from about 5800 - redline. The stage 2 cobb map had the values above 100% at high RPM WOT... First why would they have it set to over 100%.. Second is that the best way to compensate an over worked turbo, to just lower those values?

Cobb Stage 2
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/WGSTAGE2.jpg

My Changes
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/WGcustom.jpg

Now that i am starting to grasp all the tables any direction into the strategy of producing more power is definitely welcome.

[Fobio]

some, including myself, have found that adjusting our aftermarket BPV helped alleviate some weirdness in 2nd.

[BlueStreak]

Alright i'll give that a try today. Thanks

A MAF calibration also ensures proper ignition advance and load targeting (if you're load tuning).

[Snotrocket]

I definitely see an opportunity to unlock some more power. Your throttle isn't fully open until 6000RPM and your boost curve is super super conservative.


Is that tackled in the actual throttle tables?
This is all great help.. thank you for taking the time to go over all this..

[Fack_Dude]

Isn't your wgdc a little high in the lower rpm range? I remember seeing a post about not touching your wgdc values on msf.

[BlueStreak]

Is that tackled in the actual throttle tables?
This is all great help.. thank you for taking the time to go over all this..

My first hunch would be to check the load dynamics table and see if it's populated. In earlier maps, the TRL X Gear Norm BAT tables would have an effect on boost tuned cars via the load dynamics table.

What map version are you running? Are you boost tuning or load tuning?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MajesticBlueNTO]

my WGDC is pegged in the 99-100% range in the upper rpms at WOT...has been since Christian tuned my car

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8223/wot3rdstreetlog.jpg

am i worried about mine? not really.... dustin did a test on MSF where he had the stock BCS at max for a while and it had little ill effects on the solenoid.

[Snotrocket]

Isn't your wgdc a little high in the lower rpm range? I remember seeing a post about not touching your wgdc values on msf.
That is the Stage 2+CS+TIH 93 V102 map values from cobb... I only adjusted the values at high RPM to a LOWER value.. as you can see in the post those are my changes vs. the map off cobbs web site.


My first hunch would be to check the load dynamics table and see if it's populated. In earlier maps, the TRL X Gear Norm BAT tables would have an effect on boost tuned cars via the load dynamics table.

What map version are you running? Are you boost tuning or load tuning?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I used Stage2+CS+TIH 93 V102 as a base map. And i am boost tuning.

[Snotrocket]

my WGDC is pegged in the 99-100% range in the upper rpms at WOT...has been since Christian tuned my car

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8223/wot3rdstreetlog.jpg

am i worried about mine? not really.... dustin did a test on MSF where he had the stock BCS at max for a while and it had little ill effects on the solenoid.

Any idea why cobbs values at high RPMs read above 100%?

[MajesticBlueNTO]

Any idea why cobbs values at high RPMs read above 100%?

not sure...

[Fack_Dude]

my WGDC is pegged in the 99-100% range in the upper rpms at WOT...has been since Christian tuned my car

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8223/wot3rdstreetlog.jpg

am i worried about mine? not really.... dustin did a test on MSF where he had the stock BCS at max for a while and it had little ill effects on the solenoid.

I did a few logs not too long ago and I noticed that I was also maxing out on the WGDC and I was concerned about it. I notified Christian, who also tuned my car and he basically told me that the turbo was worn out or the intake valves had carbon build up. I cleaned out the intake valves and did some more logs and my WGDC came back down to 70%.

[Fobio]

a lot of what the WGA does with the WGDC table's values is temperature sensitive...a simple way of looking at it:

when it's hot, it's harder to make boost, so the WGA works harder, as evident from the high(er) WGDC values...

when it's cold, it's marginally easier to make boost (hardware setup dependent), so logged WGDC values should be relatively lower as well...

[BlueStreak]

What are your load dynamics values? I think at one point when COBB released the v102 maps, people were still reporting that the load tables were affecting the tune.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fobio]

What are your load dynamics values? I think at one point when CONB released the v102 maps, people were still reporting that the load tables were affecting the tune.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

they still do...but there is a set of diagrams posted on MSF that details the logic path depending on which table you "neutre" with 0's.

v102, the Load Dynamics table is 0'd from Cobb. I've also told snotrocket to zero out the WGD - LEC table to ensure that his boost tune is not referencing the load tables.

[Snotrocket]

they still do...but there is a set of diagrams posted on MSF that details the logic path depending on which table you "neutre" with 0's.

v102, the Load Dynamics table is 0'd from Cobb. I've also told snotrocket to zero out the WGD - LEC table to ensure that his boost tune is not referencing the load tables.

Both sides of the Table Fobio? I wanted to double check before i used those settings as in your presentation you mentioned only changing the Left side.

[Snotrocket]

What are your load dynamics values? I think at one point when COBB released the v102 maps, people were still reporting that the load tables were affecting the tune.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

the load dynamics table is set to all Zero's

[Fobio]

Both sides of the Table Fobio? I wanted to double check before i used those settings as in your presentation you mentioned only changing the Left side.

a good practice to be able to track your changes. I do that by noting the version of the table I change when ATR asks for a filename when saving the map.

go ahead and neutre the whole WGD - LEC table. or you can just zero-out the left side. the tip on Sat is to utilize the table's authority to compensate/lower WGDC if overboosting. feel free to keep the right side as it is if that makes you feel more comfortable. the reason I say to neutre the whole table to to take the whole table out of the equation.

[Snotrocket]

a good practice to be able to track your changes. I do that by noting the version of the table I change when ATR asks for a filename when saving the map.

go ahead and neutre the whole WGD - LEC table. or you can just zero-out the left side. the tip on Sat is to utilize the table's authority to compensate/lower WGDC if overboosting. feel free to keep the right side as it is if that makes you feel more comfortable. the reason I say to neutre the whole table to to take the whole table out of the equation.

ok will do thank you.

[BlueStreak]

By neutering the load dynamics table, it also neuters the usefulness of the WGDC - LEC table no matter what values are in it.

Before we could see to the WGDC - LEC table in ATR, we neutered the effect of load dynamics by zeroing out the load dynamics table. The effects of the WGDC - LEC were always there despite the fact that we couldn't see it in a table.

This may be obvious to some but not all, I imagine.

EDIT: Also, keeping the right-hand-side values in the load dynamics and WGDC-LEC tables allows you to control power per gear with the assistance of the TRL X Gear Tables. I used this method to reduce tire obliteration to just tire burning in 1st gear. Haha. 2nd-5th are full power with a limit on 6th as well.

[Fobio]

By neutering the load dynamics table, it also neuters the usefulness of the WGDC - LEC table no matter what values are in it.



I can't agree with this as much as I'd like to. But we getting into nitty gritty. On another bt I'm doing LD was zeroed. LEC still affected boost. I zeroed it and boost came down causing me to up wgdc to make up for it... This is what I'd consider to be a pure boost tune. Having said that for that other bt I plan to keep the left side of the table for summer.

[Snotrocket]

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/Data.jpg

Thank you to majesticblue for giving me a quick excel lesson... My MAF has been calibrated and after a few more tweaks things are feeling even better.

[Fobio]

WGDC looks much better...what did you do? =)

[Snotrocket]

WGDC looks much better...what did you do? =)

Pretty satisfying to see results :D All this lengthy reading coming together...

Well i just followed your advice ;) lowered the WGDC in high RPM's.. Zero'd the LEC.. Then i raised the WGDC in mid range RPM to help sustain boost..

Fobio do you think trying to hold 20PSI from 3500-6000 is to much for the K04 to handle?? Will i encounter problems anywhere else?

[BlueStreak]

I can't agree with this as much as I'd like to. But we getting into nitty gritty. On another bt I'm doing LD was zeroed. LEC still affected boost. I zeroed it and boost came down causing me to up wgdc to make up for it... This is what I'd consider to be a pure boost tune. Having said that for that other bt I plan to keep the left side of the table for summer.

So it was still targeting the TRL X Gear tables?


http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/Data.jpg

Thank you to majesticblue for giving me a quick excel lesson... My MAF has been calibrated and after a few more tweaks things are feeling even better.

Aha! You're breaking 2.0 calculated load on spoolup. That must've made a huge difference on the butt dyno ;-) Good stuff.

[-cj-]

Fobio do you think trying to hold 20PSI from 3500-6000 is to much for the K04 to handle?? Will i encounter problems anywhere else?

Since that's even further outside of the K04's efficiency range, you need to keep an eye on BAT and watch out for knock... You might be able to get away with it on the GenTwo, since you have a scoop... But be careful, IMO. That's FMIC / upgraded TMIC territory.

[Snotrocket]

Since that's even further outside of the K04's efficiency range, you need to keep an eye on BAT and watch out for knock... You might be able to get away with it on the GenTwo, since you have a scoop... But be careful, IMO. That's FMIC / upgraded TMIC territory.

I'll keep that in mind and monitor for now.. Lowered AFR slightly as a bit of a safety precaution.. no knock currently. Thanks..

[Snotrocket]

So it was still targeting the TRL X Gear tables?



Aha! You're breaking 2.0 calculated load on spoolup. That must've made a huge difference on the butt dyno ;-) Good stuff.

Ya i gained 3 underwear changes on the butt dyno ;) LOL

[Snotrocket]

I think I have completed my custom tune. Holding boost as long as I can, AFRs look good. No knock. Car feels like a whole new beast. I'll post final logs tonight :).

Thank you again Fobio, -cj-, bluestreak, and majestic for all you're time and efforts!!!

[Fobio]

I think I have completed my custom tune. Holding boost as long as I can, AFRs look good. No knock. Car feels like a whole new beast. I'll post final logs tonight :).

Thank you again Fobio, -cj-, bluestreak, and majestic for all you're time and efforts!!!

I'm glad we were able to help...now let's see a proper 4th gear log!

[BlueStreak]

I think I have completed my custom tune. Holding boost as long as I can, AFRs look good. No knock. Car feels like a whole new beast. I'll post final logs tonight :).

Thank you again Fobio, -cj-, bluestreak, and majestic for all you're time and efforts!!!

Snazz. Let's see that datalog.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Snotrocket]

Here we are :)

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/datalog15.jpg

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/VertualDynoDatalog15.jpg

[Fobio]

Considering you're on the stock TMIC, I think you're doing very well. In the long run tho, it does stress the drivetrain a bit...and you know, a reason to mod for safety....lol...

[Snotrocket]

Considering you're on the stock TMIC, I think you're doing very well. In the long run tho, it does stress the drivetrain a bit...and you know, a reason to mod for safety....lol...

Hopefully now that the majority of my logging is done I wont be driving it as hard. I almost wonder if the gen 2 hood scoop might attribute to my adequate BAT?

[fywdyl]

Nice numbers man! I've got the CS TMIC, but I'm seeing the same BATs as you do... makes me wonder if the CS TMIC is worth it...

[Snotrocket]

Ok encountered a problem... last night and this morning the car was running great. Today (maybe due to the warmer temps) the car would cut hard when trying to take off in 2nd or 3rd. Sometimes if i rolled onto the throttle slowly it wouldnt be so bad.. 2nd gear Log attached shows the car pulling throttle. DSC is off. Before when i had this problem i decreased WG in the 3500-4500 range and it seemed to make it go away but im not over boosting so i cant see why it would do this...

Edit: I just noticed my IAT being high but thats only because i was sitting in traffic for a little while right before taking this log.. BAT's aren't high enough to go into limp mode tho as i understand it.

[Fobio]

Ok encountered a problem... last night and this morning the car was running great. Today (maybe due to the warmer temps) the car would cut hard when trying to take off in 2nd or 3rd. Sometimes if i rolled onto the throttle slowly it wouldnt be so bad.. Log attached shows the car pulling throttle. DSC is off. Before when i had this problem i decreased WG in the 3500-4500 range and it seemed to make it go away but im not over boosting so i cant see why it would do this...

Edit: I just noticed my IAT being high but thats only because i was sitting in traffic for a little while right before taking this log.

At first I thought it was some sort of load cut, but I see a few things.

Very high BAT's and IAT's...but not into limp mode zone...maybe you were a few minute before.

just before the cuts...to throttle and boost, your fuel pressure dropped significantly...it also happens a row before the cuts, twice...row 35 and 50. chk your map to ensure the fuel pressure maps match where they should, since you've been playing with AFR's, there's a possibility you missed something or not ensuring the tables match. this can easily be fixed.

second, it's possible your fuel pump internals are stressed.

chk the map first and go from there.

edit: I didn't see your edit when I first posted above...lol..

[Snotrocket]

At first I thought it was some sort of load cut, but I see a few things.

Very high BAT's and IAT's...but not into limp mode zone...maybe you were a few minute before.

just before the cuts...to throttle and boost, your fuel pressure dropped significantly...it also happens a row before the cuts, twice...row 35 and 50. chk your map to ensure the fuel pressure maps match where they should, since you've been playing with AFR's, there's a possibility you missed something or not ensuring the tables match. this can easily be fixed.

second, it's possible your fuel pump internals are stressed.

chk the map first and go from there.

edit: I didn't see your edit when I first posted above...lol..

I'll look into that.. but it looks to me like throttle is cut first followed by the drop in DI pressure as you would expect? Like when throttle is cut fuel pressure is commanded to drop right?

[Snotrocket]

Apparently the problem has fixed it self.. so i dunno.... does it take the ecu some time to completely learn the map?

[Snotrocket]

Put a new map together last week to get rid of the throttle cuts i was having. Everything seems to be running great now :)

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/Datalog22graph.jpg

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/dynojetlog22.jpg

[BlueStreak]

Very very nice datalog.

Looks like you can squeeze more boost out of it as the taper is quite aggressive.

What's your spark advance like?

[Snotrocket]

Very very nice datalog.

Looks like you can squeeze more boost out of it as the taper is quite aggressive.

What's your spark advance like?

I havent touched the spark advance as i just copied the Cobb Stage 2 table. Full Datalog attached.

How can i squeeze more out. More wastegate in the earlier RPM?

And thanks!

[Fobio]

my work blocks some pics...so I can't see it. What I can share is perhaps an adjustment to tuning techniques.

the OEM top-mount, whether you agree or not, is a restriction....a restriction with regards to heat dissipation capacity (as a result of your level of mods) and as well as flow capacity. you can keep pushing it all your want...your car is not a unicorn that defies the laws of physics and fluid dynamics.

Rather, I'd focus on what the car wants to do...and work with that instead. It's not about more...it's about dioing what's appropriate to your car.

EDIT: More precisely, you can likely get some more power just from some effort in managing heat...as such, ramping up WGDC in the lower RPM range will only make it worse.

[BlueStreak]

Good points, Vince.

I figure since he was maxing WGDC by the end of the pull, he would be okay with upping it in the midrange. :) (I'm guessing you can't see the screenshot)

Also, his datalogs show max BATs of 110*F. Granted, the pull was taken at 60*F (16*C).


I havent touched the spark advance as i just copied the Cobb Stage 2 table. Full Datalog attached.

How can i squeeze more out. More wastegate in the earlier RPM?

If you choose to do so, you up your boost targets and the WGDC in the areas you would like to see an increase in boost.

Upon inspecting your timing curve, you are getting mild KR at redline and some on spool up. This could be due to real knock or engine noise; I would recommend further testing to determine what it is before playing with timing.

Timing makes a considerable difference in power when added (or removed). Just don't get all horny about adding tons since its the easiest way to grenade a motor :)

[Snotrocket]

Noted.. Thanks fellas.

Have to see what Santa brings me this winter ;)

[loki]

Noted.. Thanks fellas.

Have to see what Santa brings me this winter ;)

from the sounds of it, Santa needs to bring you an R8

[Fobio]

One way to decipher these ie. what boost can I run?, is to read the map notes for the different stages of Cobb's OTS maps. The Gen2 notes maybe a little more focused on: "Get a damn fuel pump!"...lol...but from the Gen1 maps, the notes basically illustrates a mod path for the car. Chk in our own tuning section...I also posted a thread quoting Cobb's work that discovered the major differences between the Gen1 and Gen2 requirments...that is also a good place to start examining some of the nuances.

Good luck!

[Fobio]

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/Datalog22graph.jpg

I agree with Dave that you have a pretty aggressive taper. However, having said what I did, I'd say

a. you're doing pretty well hitting 20 psi with the stock TMIC
b. having such high wgdc, high BAT's relative to ambient etc. are all obstacles to making more power
c. you can try to run a straight 20 psi boost curve, but you'll likely knock
d. there's no magic to "moving your trq curve to the right".

creating more high end power requires more efficient airflow. the K04 is good for what it does for city driving...once you explore the whole powerband, esp stock, you realize the car doesn't like running more top end.

you hp and g/s curve flat lines in the upper rpm...you can try upping boost in that area thru combination of increasing boost and the corresponding load tables...but like Dave says, keep an eye out on the knock. having maxed out wgdc in that area already, now in your current configuration, is likely an indication that you have already maxed out the efficiency of your current setup. I'd only start playing with timing once you start pulling knock free logs.

think this way...the car wants to run more top end, so what are you going to do to let it do so safely?

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/dynojetlog22.jpg

try to do a 2000rpm pull...prolly have to start below 2000.

for quick reference here, where your AFR's dip is where you would have knocked in your logs. focus some effort on being able to have knock free logs...0.3 - 0.7 is acceptable, and tune up from there instead.

[Snotrocket]

I think you hit the nail right on the head Vincent. Im at the point now that if i try increasing WGDC in lower RPM's im having very large boost spikes. At 4500 RPM my WGDC is at 100% all the way to redline and i am still tapering hard. I think the KO4 has hit its absolute max. Im currently chatting with CJ about pulling the trigger on his 3076 then its go time!

[BlueStreak]

MMmmmmm... GT3076. Sexy.

Do it!

[Snotrocket]

Next question...

Is it not recommended to turn my idle down at cold start? I would like to eliminate excess noise in the morning. Would there be any reason i couldn't turn the idle down but allow the car more time in the morning to warm up? If not why?

[loki]

Next question...

Is it not recommended to turn my idle down at cold start? I would like to eliminate excess noise in the morning. Would there be any reason i couldn't turn the idle down but allow the car more time in the morning to warm up? If not why?

curious about this also.

the - put car in gear, get everything ready, handbrake down, start and instantly get the F$&K out of there before the neighbours get pissed off - isn't fun.

[BlueStreak]

Higher idles are generally required to keep an engine running as it warms up. Though you may not have an issue now, it will become problematic as ambient temperatures start to cool off in the fall/winter.

The engine may idle rough as it gets up to operating temperature and may stall as well.

I have the same issue as well with not wanting to wake up the neighbours. I just start the car and get out of the driveway as quickly as I can.

[Fobio]

higher idle speed at initial startup is to create enough heat to heat up the cat(s) for emission purposes. 2 things to kep in mind, esp for those that park outside:

1. warming up the car to temperature (where the temp gauge IS NOT sitting on the bootom) is good for the car, esp in the dead of winter. driving the car hard without warming it up completely tends to create other issues such as excessive moisture collected in oil.

2. even when the car appears warmed up (in the dead of winter), it usuually needs about 10min of road driving for all fluids to warm up completely.

[MajesticBlueNTO]

let's add the quickest way to get a car up to operating temperature is to drive it easy for the first 10 minutes or so and *not* idling in the driveway.

for those with a coolant temp gauge, if the coolant is up to operating temp, the oil may not be, so if the coolant temp gauge moves to operating temp range, wait a little longer for the oil to get to operating temp before beating on the car.

[Snotrocket]

Ok so I'm heading to the final test and tune night at Shannonville tomorrow night. Putting together a tune for the 1/4mi strip. Any suggestions on where to get some extra top end power? I want to add a bit of timing but I'd like to know where to start and how much would be suggested as a start. Anything else I should consider bringing? Fuel additives or anything like that..

[CelestSpeed3]

Next question...

Is it not recommended to turn my idle down at cold start? I would like to eliminate excess noise in the morning. Would there be any reason i couldn't turn the idle down but allow the car more time in the morning to warm up? If not why?


Block heater my friend, best thing ever.

[Snotrocket]

Block heater my friend, best thing ever.

I put my speed away in the winter so i probably wont go that route but good thought.

[Snotrocket]

Woah, crazy knock below 3000 just showed up in my last log this morning...

[Fobio]

Woah, crazy knock below 3000 just showed up in my last log this morning...

That's not a lot of knock by any means...lol...traction control? seems a little chilly too.

[Snotrocket]

That's not a lot of knock by any means...lol...traction control? seems a little chilly too.

Crazy by my standards lol. But I'm scared of knock lol. It shouldn't be traction control as it was a 4th gear pull.

I added a couple degrees of timing between 3500 and 6000 on loads over 1.69 and no knock with a few pulls. I'll post my 1/4 times tomorrow :).

[Snotrocket]

14.2 @ 100 mph :)

[fywdyl]

14.2 @ 100 mph :)

Nice! Scan of slip?

[Snotrocket]

I'll snap a pic of it today.

[Snotrocket]

http://tapatalk.com/mu/cfdb4598-ca89-9a34.jpg

I did have a few .58 lights so don't carve me on that R/T lol.

[fywdyl]

All good man, I doubt I can even do that. Must've been fun.

[Snotrocket]

Im currently working on trying to flatten out my torque curve by adding timing in higher RPM's... I have come up with a couple questions.

First off i noticed in the ignition OL/HIGHTHROTTLE table the highest calculated load (last line at the bottom) is 2.0... Does this mean that any loads over 2.0 will grab its commanded target off this line?

Also, i don't want to add to much timing in the 3000-4000 RPM range... By only upping values at the back end will give me a big jump at around 4500RPM and won't condone a smooth timing curve.. Is it ok to just add timing to the high end of my RPM range?

Todays VD corrected.
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/datalog76VDCorrected-1.jpg

[FoXy]

Holy chit Mike, I thought you fell off the planet! Where you been! Lookin good! Hope you come out to AA!

[Snotrocket]

Holy chit Mike, I thought you fell off the planet! Where you been! Lookin good! Hope you come out to AA!

When my car goes into hibernation so do i ;) Shoot me a Facebook message when the weather gets nice again and you guys are arranging an east end meet.

[Fobio]

Im currently working on trying to flatten out my torque curve by adding timing in higher RPM's... I have come up with a couple questions.

First off i noticed in the ignition OL/HIGHTHROTTLE table the highest calculated load (last line at the bottom) is 2.0... Does this mean that any loads over 2.0 will grab its commanded target off this line?

Also, i don't want to add to much timing in the 3000-4000 RPM range... By only upping values at the back end will give me a big jump at around 4500RPM and won't condone a smooth timing curve.. Is it ok to just add timing to the high end of my RPM range?



There's really not much need to add timing at 3 - 4K range. It's a touchy area, and by "moving peak trq to the right", what you're basically doing is suppressing some of the wicked power between 3 - 4K and by upping timing beyond 4K, is where you help level off the trq curve. In order to have a smooth trq curve [chk the full bolted dyno's in the MSpeed section], you will need extra cooling capacity, such as meth, to safely increase upper rpm timing.

EdIT: ...and yes, beyond 2.0 load, the car references the 2.0 line for timing.

[Snotrocket]

There's really not much need to add timing at 3 - 4K range. It's a touchy area, and by "moving peak trq to the right", what you're basically doing is suppressing some of the wicked power between 3 - 4K and by upping timing beyond 4K, is where you help level off the trq curve. In order to have a smooth trq curve [chk the full bolted dyno's in the MSpeed section], you will need extra cooling capacity, such as meth, to safely increase upper rpm timing.

EdIT: ...and yes, beyond 2.0 load, the car references the 2.0 line for timing.

Ok, thanks.. I just wanted to add a couple of degrees timing up top then save it so i have a solid non meth map.

I may install my meth kit this weekend and/or manifold.... Hopefully i can set up a NATOR install... Anyone? :D

[loki]

Ok, thanks.. I just wanted to add a couple of degrees timing up top then save it so i have a non meth map.

I may install my meth kit this weekend and/or manifold.... Hopefully i can set up a NATOR install... Anyone? :D

sent you a PM

[Snotrocket]

Ok, thanks.. I just wanted to add a couple of degrees timing up top then save it so i have a solid non meth map.

I may install my meth kit this weekend and/or manifold.... Hopefully i can set up a NATOR install... Anyone? :D

Oh, and/or OCC lol.. i got a F ton of parts yesterday :D

[Snotrocket]

Is there any type of pattern in knock values that might suggest its false knock or its being detected by something other then actual knock retard? I can't seem to tune out knock between 2500-3500.. All of my logs have knock in this range..

I have had a few logs like this one.

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/KNOCKDL.jpg

this only shows the range i am having issues but after 3500 the value returns to 0 until redline.

[BlueStreak]

Have a look at this (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f9/kr-explained-102609/).

[Snotrocket]

Have a look at this (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f9/kr-explained-102609/).

Cool thanks.. what i got out of that is that it is real knock but nothing to worry about? I just couldn't figure out why i couldn't tune it out by dialling boost way down and richening things up in that RPM range...

[BlueStreak]

It may or may not be real knock. At any rate, it's something that is immaterial.

FWIW, I get the same thing from time to time on my logs and just ignore it.

[Snotrocket]

Right on, thanks dave.

[Snotrocket]

This is my Final K04 tune... Ironic how i get things dialled in the way i want and I'm going to be starting fresh in 2 weeks. At least i'll get a weekend in NJ out of my custom tune lol.

Also thanks for the math equations Fobio... They got me hitting my boost targets at 3000 RPM!

DATALOG attached.

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/snotrocket1983/Final64VDcopy.jpg

[Fobio]

very nice mike! good conclusion to one chapter in preparation for the start of the next! =)

[CelestSpeed3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7Q0dI7aAZI

[Snotrocket]

Right on, thanks Paul! well put together!

[Snotrocket]

when advancing timing is it recommended to do so incrementally or can you adjust it randomly to avoid knock sensitive areas through the rev range..

quick example

is it better to go 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12

or can you go 4,5,6,6.5,7,8,11,12,14,14

[Fobio]

when advancing timing is it recommended to do so incrementally or can you adjust it randomly to avoid knock sensitive areas through the rev range..

quick example

is it better to go 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12

or can you go 4,5,6,6.5,7,8,11,12,14,14

smooth and steady is the best you can do on the street. timing, as discussed at the seminar, is best played with on the dyno where you can see actual differences of isolated timing changes.