fywdyl's logs

[fywdyl]

As per Fobio's suggestions, here are some of my logs. All logs were done around a temp of -5*C to about 0*C.

First two are stock tune logs, I did these when I first got the AP.

In 3rd gear
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/Stg03rdWOT.jpg

In 4th gear
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/Stg04thWOT.jpg

You'll notice that even on the stock tune I'm getting some knocking in 3rd gear and the car runs rich to compensate.

This next one is a Stg1 CS SRI+TIP 91. Also in 3rd.
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/Stg1CSSRITIP3rdWOT.jpg

It tries to hit boost targets (17.5psi tapering to 16psi), but then the fuel pump craps out on me and you get the "hit a brick wall" feeling. It happens twice for me, once around the 5 sec mark and another time around the 6.6 sec mark. Time for a new fuel pump.

Fast forward a few months, installed the cp-e CDFP and here are the new logs.

This tune is Stg1 CS SRI+TIP+CDFP 91. Also in 3rd.
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/Stg1CSSRITIPCDFP3rdWOT.jpg

The fuel pressure is awesome now! This time there are a few boost spikes of almost 20psi at one point, boost targets are 18.5psi tapering to 16.5psi. You will notice that I'm running into the knocking problem again... from 10.5 sec to about 13.3 sec.

Last is the same tune as above, but I put in Ultra 94 to see if it would do anything to prevent the knocking.

This tune is Stg1 CS SRI+TIP+CDFP 91 on 94 octane. Also in 3rd.
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/Stg1CSSRITIPCDFP3rdWOT94OCT.jpg

Again, boost spiking for a little bit. Up to 21psi at one point (scary). And again, if you look at the highlighted area, I'm seeing knock still. 94 octane, no dice. Again, because of the knock, the car is throwing fuel at the engine and it makes the car run rich.

I've already bought a set of Denso ITV22 to be installed once my CS TMIC arrives. Until then, I prob won't be doing anymore logs.

[Fobio]

I know the speeds are much higher, but try to do a 4th gear log...in this cold weather, traction might be a problem ,and in third, it looks like it's retarding power to compensate.

Once we can sort that out then we can address the richness.

also...what is the boost target for your stg1+ map? I highly doubt it's supposed to target 20psi...did you bump that up yourself?

[fywdyl]

I'll try to do some 4th gear pulls this weekend depending on the weather. Thanks again Fobio.

If only the richness was in my bank acct and not my car...

[Fobio]

I'll try to do some 4th gear pulls this weekend depending on the weather. Thanks again Fobio.

If only the richness was in my bank acct and not my car...

don't we all...

boost wise, if you're boost tuned and say you're targeting ~17psi, then other than the spike, you look ok...it's possible for the turbo to spike 21psi, and the best way to address that is with a Electronic Boost Control Selenoid...then tuning it in ATR thru WGDC.

With our CDN weather and wide temp swings, this is I think something to consider.

What yr is your car?

[fywdyl]

It's a 2010. Awesome, more things to drain my bank acct.

[Fobio]

It's a 2010. Awesome, more things to drain my bank acct.

let's start with: did you up your own boost target? are you using boost tuning?

[Sean80]

Have you calibrated your MAF? My numbers were way off when I first put in my high flow CDFP, once I calibrated my MAF everything sorted itself out. All you guys are getting me nervous, I'm going to do some logs this afternoon to make sure everything is still good. Haven't done any all winter, but I haven't been into boost a whole lot either.

[fywdyl]

let's start with: did you up your own boost target? are you using boost tuning?

Nope, didn't touch anything for those runs.


Have you calibrated your MAF? My numbers were way off when I first put in my high flow CDFP, once I calibrated my MAF everything sorted itself out. All you guys are getting me nervous, I'm going to do some logs this afternoon to make sure everything is still good. Haven't done any all winter, but I haven't been into boost a whole lot either.

I did it recently, but I haven't done a log since due to the knock that I was getting. I will try to do a log in 4th this weekend thou to see how things are going.

[fywdyl]

Couldn't wait till the weekend, so I did a log last night.

Amb temp is about 2*C. This was done in 4th gear.

Again, some slight boost spiking, some richness in AFR. Nothing new.

I tried to calibrate the MAF this time, but on idle and cruising speeds, the LTFT is between -3.2 to -1.6.

[BlueStreak]

For a little more information into what is going on, I suggest raising the knock sensor cutoff limit to 6700 RPM in ATR. If you notice in your earlier datalogs, knock disappears after 5700 RPM. This is because the ECU stops reading knock sensor values after that and won't compensate by adding fuel/reducing timing.

[Fobio]

For a little more information into what is going on, I suggest raising the knock sensor cutoff limit to 6700 RPM in ATR. If you notice in your earlier datalogs, knock disappears after 5700 RPM. This is because the ECU stops reading knock sensor values after that and won't compensate by adding fuel/reducing timing.

I agree...this was also brought up by MBNTO when we discussed the previous logs, that KR died at where the knock sensor goes deaf in stock form. Using the new ATR, you can move this up to redline.

With this new log, the good thing is that the knock isn't the same as the previous logs. Personally, I still think it's a traction issue, as it's still cold outside. In your new log, there's much less KR in the same range right?

I'm still a little surprised you're hitting 19psi...

I can't say from looking at the logs, why you might get a bit of knock, but KR under 1 @ WOT is not the end of the world.

[fywdyl]

I agree...this was also brought up by MBNTO when we discussed the previous logs, that KR died at where the knock sensor goes deaf in stock form. Using the new ATR, you can move this up to redline.

With this new log, the good thing is that the knock isn't the same as the previous logs. Personally, I still think it's a traction issue, as it's still cold outside. In your new log, there's much less KR in the same range right?

I'm still a little surprised you're hitting 19psi...

I can't say from looking at the logs, why you might get a bit of knock, but KR under 1 @ WOT is not the end of the world.

Cool, I'll raise the knock sensor thing. I remember reading that somewhere, and I just forgot about it. There's def much less knock in the new log. I'll take your advice and wait for warmer weather before doing anything major.

The knock thing is just me being anal. I'm one of those guys that HAVE to fix a crooked picture hanging a wall if I see one.

Thanks guys.

[BlueStreak]

The knock thing is just me being anal. I'm one of those guys that HAVE to fix a crooked picture hanging a wall if I see one.

I wouldn't look at LTFTs as the temperature changes, if I were you. Haha.

[Fobio]

I wouldn't look at LTFTs as the temperature changes, if I were you. Haha.

LTFT's change during partial throttle, but during WOT runs, your LTFT's are basically 0's...if however, you're logging funky LTFT's during WOT, then that is cause for concern. Once you do a few WOT runs and you're ok with the LTFT's then you can definitely leave them out for logs.

Yes, temp changes will greatly affect your LTFT's, but the range should still be +/- 5% from max to min, or no higher than +/- 8%...as long as they're within this range for partial throttle, you'll be fine.

And yeah, I'm anal about things that I can fix too...in terms of the knock, the only way to address it, is to ensure you know its cause. And from what I see, I don't think there's anything wrong with your engine at this point...

[fywdyl]

Looks like I'm gonna be chasing my tail if I keep trying to get LTFT to be 0s...
Prob won't do much WOT until I get the plugs in.
Thanks for the info guys.

[Fobio]

Looks like I'm gonna be chasing my tail if I keep trying to get LTFT to be 0s...
Prob won't do much WOT until I get the plugs in.
Thanks for the info guys.

as per Cobb, don't chase your tailll...your LTFT's at partial throttle will never be zero's...

plugs may or may not help, but tuning is difficult if you can't pin down your mechanical setup 100%.

also...where you log also matters...say, in a new subdivision (good luck...lol...) sand and dirt on the ground affects traction...

tip: hwy on ramps...late at night...double back and forth if you have to...be safe.

[fywdyl]

as per Cobb, don't chase your tailll...your LTFT's at partial throttle will never be zero's...

plugs may or may not help, but tuning is difficult if you can't pin down your mechanical setup 100%.

also...where you log also matters...say, in a new subdivision (good luck...lol...) sand and dirt on the ground affects traction...

tip: hwy on ramps...late at night...double back and forth if you have to...be safe.

Yup, not gonna chase my tail anymore, I'll leave that to my cat.

That's where I get my logs done! 404 N in the dead of the night...

[fywdyl]

Just installed the CS TMIC over the weekend. I did a couple of logs. First one was with the OTS map, the second one I just upped the AFR to 11.5 and taper to 10.8 at redline.

Didn't gain any g/s, but that's unimportant, weather's getting warmer so that may be why. Huge difference in the delta of IAT and BAT compared to the previous logs. All in all I'm happy w/ the TMIC.

I did some revisions to my map. I might load it up tonight and give it a go.

Edit: Uploaded the maps backwards, so first one is 11.5 AFR and 2nd one is OTS.

[fywdyl]

Did some new logs after the tweaks. Changed the target boost, changed the TRL tables (as per MSF.org), changed the WGDC.

There is some knock in some areas. I have pulled some timing in hopes of clearing that up.

[Fobio]

the knock...it's the moment your IAT and BAT climbs...it'll likely happen on your last run of the night...

ultimately, for a safer tune, taper your Target AFR richer nearer to red line...you can prolly start around 5500rpm...end up around low 11's at 7000rpm...

Timing changes should your last resort. I would go back to the original timing and add a little fuel instead.

[fywdyl]

the knock...it's the moment your IAT and BAT climbs...it'll likely happen on your last run of the night...

ultimately, for a safer tune, taper your Target AFR richer nearer to red line...you can prolly start around 5500rpm...end up around low 11's at 7000rpm...

Timing changes should your last resort. I would go back to the original timing and add a little fuel instead.

Thanks for the tip. On the last revision, I lowered the AFR starting at 5500 to 10.8 at 7000. If that helps then I can leave the timing alone. Too bad it's raining all weekend.

[fywdyl]

More logs.

This time I made the AFRs richer and changed the timing back to the OTS map. I'm using Shell 91, so I think the AFRs still have to be richer. Right now it's 11.5 @ 3000 and starts to taper to 10.6 from 5000 to redline.

The knock isn't as bad as the last log, but there's still some left. Going to drop the AFR to 11.2 to see how it goes.

I'm not hitting my boost targets beyond 5000rpm, how can I remedy this? Do I increase the TRL tables, or do I increase the WGDC? Right now I'm using the (WGDCx2)+10 formula. Should I try (WGDCx2)+9?

Thanks.

[Fobio]

More logs.

This time I made the AFRs richer and changed the timing back to the OTS map. I'm using Shell 91, so I think the AFRs still have to be richer. Right now it's 11.5 @ 3000 and starts to taper to 10.6 from 5000 to redline.

The knock isn't as bad as the last log, but there's still some left. Going to drop the AFR to 11.2 to see how it goes.

I'm not hitting my boost targets beyond 5000rpm, how can I remedy this? Do I increase the TRL tables, or do I increase the WGDC? Right now I'm using the (WGDCx2)+10 formula. Should I try (WGDCx2)+9?

Thanks.

You can raise your TRL to a "flatline", then adjust WGDC...or conversely, leave WGDC then adjust TRL...ultimately, one should have more resolution in the WGDC table to play with than the TRL tables, so you can set the TRL tables to say, 2.2 from 3000rpm and up, start off with lower WGDC values, and then tune up to achieve your boost target....assuming your boost target tables is set correctly to start with.

[fywdyl]

You can raise your TRL to a "flatline", then adjust WGDC...or conversely, leave WGDC then adjust TRL...ultimately, one should have more resolution in the WGDC table to play with than the TRL tables, so you can set the TRL tables to say, 2.2 from 3000rpm and up, start off with lower WGDC values, and then tune up to achieve your boost target....assuming your boost target tables is set correctly to start with.

Man, love the way you explain things... so straight forward. Looks like it's gonna be a busy weekend.

[fywdyl]

I tried the flatline method over the weekend, but I was still over/under boosting at certain points. So what I did was I changed the load to mimic the calc load, then I zeroed out the load dynamics table and tweaked the boost dynamics table and I'm hitting my targets quite nicely now (within +/-1 psi).

Here are my logs.

Ignore the knock in the 3rd gear log, the car wasn't properly warmed up yet.

My next step is to tweak the 1st and 2nd gear so that I'm not spinning the tires when I go WOT. I plan to use the target boost table and the APP table to achieve this. So I'm gonna set a lower boost at, say, 52% pedal position and then just max out 1st gear at 52%. In theory, this should work right?

[Fobio]

That's kinda shitty that you can't eliminate one of the 2 floating variables...it just creates more "chasing your taiL" situation. This is further compounded by seasonal temperature changes.

I guess, like me, you'll have to "set" a load curve that dictates your ideal boost curve and then adjust boost target to follow that and use WGDC to fine tune.

With re: to 1st and 2nd, I might hold off on doing all that tedious work for a bit (unless you have time and find it necessary)...I feel that once the Gen2 logic trickles back down to us, it mmight be sqaure one again.

[fywdyl]

Starting over. I'm starting w/ the v101 maps and going from there. So far I did a maf cal, upped the AFR to 11.47, change the CL/OL to happen at 1.25, upped the boost to 17 tapering to 16.5 at RL.

The new v101 maps are much smoother in terms of throttle and it's much easier to shift now.

There's some knock in certain areas, I'm gonna try to pull some timing to see if that helps any.

Question: Do I have to change the HPFP tables to demand more FP? Right now it's set at 1669.6. Thanks!

[fywdyl]

Question about octane: Does increasing the octane affect the AFR and fuel trims?

Reason I'm asking is because I'm on a 91 map right now with 94 fuel. I'm trying to figure out whether the knock that I'm getting is real or phantom. I get some knock (like <0.5*) at the beginning of my pulls (around 2800-3200 rpm) and then some knock up top (like <0.5* at around 6300 rpm). I've decreased the timing as well, so hopefully this will isolate the problem. If it is phantom knock, then I should adjust the knock offset table, correct?

[BlueStreak]

Changing from 91 to 94 and vice versa does not affect AFR/fuel trims.

And you are correct, if it is phantom knock, use the knock offset table to reduce the sensitivity of the sensor. I must stress the point: "If it is phantom knock".

[Fobio]

Changing from 91 to 94 and vice versa does not affect AFR/fuel trims.

And you are correct, if it is phantom knock, use the knock offset table to reduce the sensitivity of the sensor. I must stress the point: "If it is phantom knock".

if one is still in the process of tuning, I'd leave the knock tables alone...or in fact, raise the knock sensor max table to 6700rpm...

with regards to phantom knock...ie. up to 5.9 degrees between 2800 - 3500rpm, I just learn to deal with it. any effort spent trying to tune it out or eliminate it will be wasted, and better spent on smoothing out your WGDC or something more tangible...

on another note, I've been through about 20 maps already on the new turbo...no more phantom knock.

NEW(er) school of thought: once you get bolted, any WOT knock of upt to 1 degree is acceptable, as most self-tuners chalk that up to engine noise.

[fywdyl]

Yeah, it's not a huge concern because it's usually <0.5 and very rarely gets to like 0.7 or 0.8. With the DP and TP being installed soon, I'll have to redo the WGDC tables. BTW, the new beta ATR is awesome. No need to touch the TRL tables at all.

Oh and one more random thing. When I was doing the MAF cal, I discovered that you don't have to round the values when you use the 'm' function on ATR. For example, if your LTFT was 2.34, you can multiply the MAF table by 1.0234. Good for ppl who are anal, like myself.

[BlueStreak]

with regards to phantom knock...ie. up to 5.9 degrees between 2800 - 3500rpm, I just learn to deal with it. any effort spent trying to tune it out or eliminate it will be wasted, and better spent on smoothing out your WGDC or something more tangible...

w.r.t. 5.9 degrees KR, you're referring to cruising at those RPMs, not WOT, I'm assuming?

[Fobio]

w.r.t. 5.9 degrees KR, you're referring to cruising at those RPMs, not WOT, I'm assuming?

yeah...cruising knock or what is generally accepted as "phantom knock" where the car is hunting for fuel economy while cruising.

[fywdyl]

Some stage 2 logs.

Planning to up the AFR this weekend and see where that takes me.

[Fobio]

whoa...what are you logging with to get such high resolution?!

Curves look good in th 2nd log...

You're getting +1.56% LTFT @ WOT between 2.52 - 4.28V...I'd go ahead and just add +2% to that range and see what happens...

Having said that, you might as well just target 11.8 AFR *FIRST*, log, correct LTFT's, log again...THEN re-adjust MAF calibration @ WOT to make sure it hits 11.8 when you target 11.8...

with your logging resolution, I wouldn't be surprised if you can get it within +/- 0.05 of 11.80 if you OCD it...meth will then **** it all up again... ;)

your car has about 20 - 30 whp left to tweak out of it before needing more parts....leaner afr will help...timing will help...

parts-wise...fmic in this weather will help...meth will help...all within safety margins of course.

[fywdyl]

whoa...what are you logging with to get such high resolution?!

Curves look good in th 2nd log...

You're getting +1.56% LTFT @ WOT between 2.52 - 4.28V...I'd go ahead and just add +2% to that range and see what happens...

Having said that, you might as well just target 11.8 AFR *FIRST*, log, correct LTFT's, log again...THEN re-adjust MAF calibration @ WOT to make sure it hits 11.8 when you target 11.8...

with your logging resolution, I wouldn't be surprised if you can get it within +/- 0.05 of 11.80 if you OCD it...meth will then **** it all up again... ;)

your car has about 20 - 30 whp left to tweak out of it before needing more parts....leaner afr will help...timing will help...

parts-wise...fmic in this weather will help...meth will help...all within safety margins of course.

Ever since I updated to the beta ATR and the firmware, the resolution has been super high.

Before uppding the AFR to 11.8, I'm running on 91 oct at the moment, do you suggest I move up to 94? I'm just being stingy.

Yeah, this weather is brutal for the right now... but if it's tuned safely in this weather, then it should be OK when the weather cools down, right?

[Fobio]

Ever since I updated to the beta ATR and the firmware, the resolution has been super high.

Before uppding the AFR to 11.8, I'm running on 91 oct at the moment, do you suggest I move up to 94? I'm just being stingy.

Yeah, this weather is brutal for the right now... but if it's tuned safely in this weather, then it should be OK when the weather cools down, right?

being stingy is completely understandable. just know that you have options if you want to reach for it...11.8 with any good quality gas is fine, but I'd prefer Shell's 91.

a tune that is able to hit your targets in this weather MIGHT overboost in the winter...but that's where the WGDC Comp tables come in, assuming everything work as it should...

[fywdyl]

Virtual Dyno question: I do my logs starting at 2,000 rpm, but whenever I load a log into VD, it usually starts at around 3,000 or 3,500 rpm. Does it have something to do with the throttle position? Also, most logs I've seen online have a pretty quick transition from a part throttle to the full throttle position (75%~76% ish), but in most of my logs, they go to like 71%, then up to 76%, then down to 74%. Is there a table I can modify to get rid of this anomaly?

Thanks.

[BlueStreak]

Also, most logs I've seen online have a pretty quick transition from a part throttle to the full throttle position (75%~76% ish), but in most of my logs, they go to like 71%, then up to 76%, then down to 74%. Is there a table I can modify to get rid of this anomaly?

Thanks.

Your TRL X Gear Tables are affecting your tune.

[fywdyl]

Your TRL X Gear Tables are affecting your tune.

Cool, should I do the flat line thing (i.e. set it at 2.5) or do a few logs and then put in the actual load?

[Fobio]

Cool, should I do the flat line thing (i.e. set it at 2.5) or do a few logs and then put in the actual load?

no...if you target say 15 psi @ 2500, 17psi @ 3000, and 19psi @ 3500, your TRL table should track those to within 0.05...for for 15, you use 1.5 to 1.55 @ 2500rpm, 1.7 to 1.75 for 3000 and 1.90 to 1.95 @ 3500.

[fywdyl]

OK, I'll do that then. Thanks Fobio.

[fywdyl]

So recently (just before the tuning seminar) I made a few changes to my map. Changed the AFR from 11.47 to 11.8 ish, upped the FP, upped the idle rpm and upped the boost error ramp limiter.

Anyway, before those changes I was hitting boost targets no prob, but after those changes, I can't seem to hit my targets in low/mid rpms. I don't know what it was, but I changed the idle rpm back and changed the boost error ramp limiter and I was kinda hitting the targets again. Not sure what happened, but it was fixed. Here are the logs for it.

The 30*C log is the pre-change and the 24*C is the post change.

[BlueStreak]

Post a screenshot of your TRL 4th Gear Norm BAT table. I have a feeling its having affect on your tune judging by your throttle closing then re-opening during the pull.

By the looks of it, you're targeting a maximum of 2.0 load in the mid-high 2K RPM range then a taper down to 1.9 +/- well into 5K RPM.

[fywdyl]

Here you go.

[BlueStreak]

I'd say its having an effect. Your calculated load follows the 1.9 target for a very very long time. The >2.0 values are on spoolup where there turbo just flys by target load and then the ECU begins closing the throttle in an attempt to reel it in.

To fix your issue, you'll have to up the calculated load values where you aren't reaching target boost.

[fywdyl]

I'd say its having an effect. Your calculated load follows the 1.9 target for a very very long time. The >2.0 values are on spoolup where there turbo just flys by target load and then the ECU begins closing the throttle in an attempt to reel it in.

To fix your issue, you'll have to up the calculated load values where you aren't reaching target boost.

I shall do that then. Thanks Dave.

[BlueStreak]

How's it working, Anson?

[fywdyl]

Haven't had a chance to do the logs yet... I might do them tmrw night cuz it might rain tonight. Will post results once I get a chance.

Thanks again!

[fywdyl]

Finally had some free time to do some logs. Not gonna post them all cuz it'll be redundant.

Here's the VD chart of my progress.

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/v18tov21.jpg

v1.8 was what I started with. I believe all I did there was up my AFRs from 11.4 to 11.7~8 ish.
v1.9 was where I lowered the TRL tables. Car felt really sluggish after this (as you can see).
v2.0 was where I tried to remove the TRL tables as a variable. I set it to 2.5 load going from 3K rpm onwards. I was over my boost targets after doing this and it caused some knock.
v2.1 is the most recent iteration. I did some math and put in the logged loads to try and achieve my targets.

So looks like the TRL tables are still playing a big role in terms of boost for me. Rob (rfinkle2 on msf) said that I could try to set the loads really high (like 2.3~2.5) and then use WGDC to tune the boost. Not sure if I'm comfortable with that seeing that I was hitting ~20 psi when I set the load to 2.5 (although it never actually reached 2.5 load). Probably going to play with the load some more to get it spot on.

Going forward, I might start SLOWLY playing with timing. Guys, in your opinion, what is safer/more advantageous? Lower AFR + higher timing, or higher AFR + lower timing?

Thanks!

[Fobio]

So looks like the TRL tables are still playing a big role in terms of boost for me. Rob (rfinkle2 on msf) said that I could try to set the loads really high (like 2.3~2.5) and then use WGDC to tune the boost. Not sure if I'm comfortable with that seeing that I was hitting ~20 psi when I set the load to 2.5 (although it never actually reached 2.5 load). Probably going to play with the load some more to get it spot on.

Going forward, I might start SLOWLY playing with timing. Guys, in your opinion, what is safer/more advantageous? Lower AFR + higher timing, or higher AFR + lower timing?

Thanks!

Going with those unreasonaly high and unattainable (pray to god you don't) loads to achieve targets is an old and outdated method of reaching targets. You're basically neutering the load tables, but in a relatively unsafe way.if you want 20psi, but can'tget there with 2.4 load, something else is missing. To reiterate what I've said before, if you target 20psi, you should target 2.0 load and allow the rest of the map to assist you in doing so.

Something such as the WGD - LEC table...it's been neutered by Cobb on the v102 maps for some cars. This table will help you make boost. But understand it for what it is: when your achieved targets are below your targetted load, this table will help with more WGDC until it reaches your load targets for boost and WGDC. This works nicely and basically auto-tunes WGDC without WGDC being exact. If you use this table, but request 2.5 load...guess what it's doing? I do not agree with this method of tuning.

Lastly...timing. Until everything is nailed down, I would not touch timing. Again, it's not about more timing, more power, more air, more meth...MORE MOAR MOAR. Once you achieve your targets WITHOUT timing, and knock free, then play with timing. Cuz by that time, your car will be telling you it wants more timing. Otherwise, you're just going to create more variables.

[fywdyl]

Going with those unreasonaly high and unattainable (pray to god you don't) loads to achieve targets is an old and outdated method of reaching targets. You're basically neutering the load tables, but in a relatively unsafe way.if you want 20psi, but can'tget there with 2.4 load, something else is missing. To reiterate what I've said before, if you target 20psi, you should target 2.0 load and allow the rest of the map to assist you in doing so.

Something such as the WGD - LEC table...it's been neutered by Cobb on the v102 maps for some cars. This table will help you make boost. But understand it for what it is: when your achieved targets are below your targetted load, this table will help with more WGDC until it reaches your load targets for boost and WGDC. This works nicely and basically auto-tunes WGDC without WGDC being exact. If you use this table, but request 2.5 load...guess what it's doing? I do not agree with this method of tuning.

Lastly...timing. Until everything is nailed down, I would not touch timing. Again, it's not about more timing, more power, more air, more meth...MORE MOAR MOAR. Once you achieve your targets WITHOUT timing, and knock free, then play with timing. Cuz by that time, your car will be telling you it wants more timing. Otherwise, you're just going to create more variables.

I've tried the method where I set the load vs boost as 10:1 (so 2.0 load for 20 psi), this was v1.9 of my map. I was targeting 19 psi max @ 3,500 rpm, but as you can see from the VD I wasn't reaching my target of 19. I tried upping the WGDC, tried giving more authority to the WGD - BEC, still no dice. So in v2.0 of my map, I set the loads higher, but of course, I zeroed out the WGD - LEC (has always been) and only then did I start hitting the boost targets, and overshot them a bit too (20psi).

Basically, from what I've noticed is that the TRL tables are affecting the actual WGDC and if I set it to 10:1, it won't hit my boost targets. So does it make sense to increase the TRL accordingly? But I def not going to set it at 2.5 and just leave it.

And you're totally right about timing. Thanks for bringing me back down to earth, ha ha. I'm prob not gonna touch timing except to get rid of knock. I plan to get a tune done by Brian next year, so I'll hold out till then.

BTW, I'm trying to set my peak boost (19psi) to come in at 3,500rpm, with a smooth ramp-up from 3,000rpm. But it seems like the car wants to hit peak at 3,000rpm. Problem is, it would go past my 3,000rpm target (17psi) and then try to bring it back down and then bring it up again at 3,500rpm. I would get a weird dip in boost and then it would go up again. Should I just go w/ the flow (no pun intended) and let it hit 19 earlier?

[Fobio]

I haven't tuned a Gen2 yet, but I'd gladly try. I do not doubt that there's a possibility of variances in the boost logic, but I believe it is something that can be tackled. Unfortunately, my ATR doesn't read Gen2 maps...but if you're up for it, come on by and let me install a copy of Gen2 ATR w/ your AP.

WGD-LEC table has 2 sides...what values are you running?

Initial boost on spike is the nature of the K04...it's what gives it the "wild child" effect. Embrace it and love it. Control it with WGDC: more WGDC = more spike. You don't want it to spike past 20 - 21 psi. The rest of the tune, with enough support mods (breathing AND cooling) can be 19psi. I'm assuming you're @ Stg2+?

EDIT: When I was running Stg2+ FMIC, I can steadily spike 21, hold 20, taper to 19.

[fywdyl]

I haven't tuned a Gen2 yet, but I'd gladly try. I do not doubt that there's a possibility of variances in the boost logic, but I believe it is something that can be tackled. Unfortunately, my ATR doesn't read Gen2 maps...but if you're up for it, come on by and let me install a copy of Gen2 ATR w/ your AP.

WGD-LEC table has 2 sides...what values are you running?

Initial boost on spike is the nature of the K04...it's what gives it the "wild child" effect. Embrace it and love it. Control it with WGDC: more WGDC = more spike. You don't want it to spike past 20 - 21 psi. The rest of the tune, with enough support mods (breathing AND cooling) can be 19psi. I'm assuming you're @ Stg2+?

EDIT: When I was running Stg2+ FMIC, I can steadily spike 21, hold 20, taper to 19.

Gen2 tuning would be sweet! We can set something up when we're both free and we can get on that.

WGD-LEC, by both sides, you mean over and under? I zeroed out the whole table.

Oh don't get me wrong, I do love it, but I just thought that you can tune it to make it smoother.

EDIT: Yes, Stg2 w/ CS TMIC

[BlueStreak]

Boost can easily be managed without spiking on the K04. If you look at cld12pk2go's "no boom just zoom" discussion thread on MSF.org, you'll notice that the K04 can essentially make 20PSI at 3K RPM. Unless you're aiming to spool the turbo as quickly as possible (which is not your case), you shouldn't be spiking. Boost onset can be made quite gradual if you're looking to get 20PSI by 3.5K RPM for instance.

Spiking is more of an issue when you're trying to spool a turbo as quickly as possible. For instance, with a GT3076, you'll see full boost at around 3800RPM (20PSI) whereas perhaps as much as 300RPMs earlier, you'll see 10PSI. With bigger turbos, it's like wait.... wait... (RPMs climbing) wait.... wait... THERE IT IS! Generally, before you hit full boost, you have the WG completely shut and timing retarded to spool the turbo in the shortest time frame which tends to cause spikes. However, if you wanted 20PSI by 4500RPMs on a GT3076, you can make boost onset more gradual and avoid spiking.

[Fobio]

Looking at his graph, it looks like spike isn't really an issue for him at all. Having said that...even guys who should be running 18psi tunes tend to spike 20psi early on...and to the butt dyno, it feels like zoom-zoom.

Personally, for the longevity of the engine and this depends very much on where in the rpm range you spend the most time in, I would request my peak load after 3500rpm on the stock K04...this also help manage launching the car...I can't imagine everyone spinning thru 2nd and into 3rd will make good time...well, that's where launch control comes in I suppose. Regardless, despite how I'd support cld12pk2go and his experiments, and having achieved 300whp on my own tune on the K04...and logging from 2000rpm to redline consistently, I don't believe that what he does pulling from 2000rpm or what we do logging and driving on the street to be that "abusive" compared to a couple of laps on the track. But I do agree with Lex that subjecting your car to unreasonably high loads in the low rpms where the combustion events are much longer is unduly stressing the car. Even for the guy I tuned and requests the spike to get a kick, I would advise for him to learn to drive the whole rpm range and not rely the low rpm torque.

But that is alll just my personal opinion based on interpretation of the info I read on MSF and application of it to my car. And not just take some guy's post on the Internet as gospel...lol...

EDIT: running the 3-port EBCS made fast spool + spike control possible. just took more time to tune than running stock boost control. and with my current turbo, I kinda wish I spike...lol...but I can already notice a change in my driving.

[fywdyl]

Finally got my tune down to what I am targetting. Everything is looking great now. AFRs are stable, boost targets are in check, and no knock.

Thanks to everyone that helped me get this far. (Fobio, Bluestreak, Snotrocket)

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/Final.jpg

Now I'm gonna try to limit the 1st and 2nd gear boost by using the APP tables. Will report back with my findings.

[fywdyl]

Well, confirmed once again that APP doesn't work. That means if you are boost tuning, you are unable to control the power by gear. If you want to control the power by gear you'll have to use load based tuning.

[BlueStreak]

You can control power per gear by using the TRL X Gear tables and the reductive portion of the load error table. Works like a charm :-)


---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fywdyl]

OK, made the recommended changes and SWEET DEAL IT WORKS!!!!

I lowered both the 1st and 2nd gear TRL, and then used OTS values for the right hand side of the WG Load Error Comp table.

Now 1st gear only hit 13.5psi at the peak and 2nd gear hit 15psi tops. Still getting a little wheel spin at the top of 1st, so I'm going to tweak the TRL and WG Load Error Comp tables some more.

However, in 1st gear I'm running really rich, like low 9s AFR...... the AFRs are fine for the other gears... any idea why this is?

Also, for those that were following the WG RPM Comp A&B over on MSF, I changed A to -100 and B to 0 and the TRL table still work for limiting 1st and 2nd gear. Awesome.

Thanks guys!!!!!

[BlueStreak]

Good stuff.

At this point, I don't know why you're running so rich in 1st gear. What generation MS3 do you have? If it's a 1st gen, I can have a look at your map to see if I can pinpoint anything.

[fywdyl]

2010, so Genpu.

[fywdyl]

So I made quite a few changes as per the suggestions from Vince (thanks again!) and now I'm gonna start over. I did a few logs last night (don't have them here, I'm at work) and I was overshooting the boost targets but I was getting fuel cut/throttle close, which means the map is working as it should! :) Gonna do some more fine tuning and I have a feeling it's gonna be awesome. Will post results later. Thanks again guys!

[Fobio]

So I made quite a few changes as per the suggestions from Vince (thanks again!) and now I'm gonna start over. I did a few logs last night (don't have them here, I'm at work) and I was overshooting the boost targets but I was getting fuel cut/throttle close, which means the map is working as it should! :) Gonna do some more fine tuning and I have a feeling it's gonna be awesome. Will post results later. Thanks again guys!

Good stuff man! Looking forward to your results on dyno day.

[fywdyl]

RPM reversal, cause for concern?

[Fobio]

RPM reversal, cause for concern?

what plugs are you on?

[BlueStreak]

Hmmmm... I would say no. I just had a look at your time intervals (seconds between samples) and you're sampling waaayy faster than I am. In some instances, about 5 times faster.

Other than that, you have no KR whatsoever and I'm guessing you've never thrown a misfire CEL, correct? Mine does all of that and then some. Haha.

Hopefully I didn't set off alarms. I edited the post on my thread to be a little more open to interpretation.

[fywdyl]

what plugs are you on?

ITV22s


Hmmmm... I would say no. I just had a look at your time intervals (seconds between samples) and you're sampling waaayy faster than I am. In some instances, about 5 times faster.

Other than that, you have no KR whatsoever and I'm guessing you've never thrown a misfire CEL, correct? Mine does all of that and then some. Haha.

Hopefully I didn't set off alarms. I edited the post on my thread to be a little more open to interpretation.

I re-read your post just after making my post. Maybe I'm just thinking too much. :)

[Fobio]

Hmmmm... I would say no. I just had a look at your time intervals (seconds between samples) and you're sampling waaayy faster than I am. In some instances, about 5 times faster.

Other than that, you have no KR whatsoever and I'm guessing you've never thrown a misfire CEL, correct? Mine does all of that and then some. Haha.

Hopefully I didn't set off alarms. I edited the post on my thread to be a little more open to interpretation.

yeah...the Gen2 resolution is insane compared to ours. and I think your method is worthy to be documented as part of a regiment to diagnose engine health.

[BlueStreak]

:werd

It's a good tool that can be used in conjunction with other measures to diagnose. On its own, I don't think its very powerful.

[fywdyl]

Hey guys. Need your help again. Can't wrap my head around something...

So I made the changes recommended by Fobio. Totally makes sense to me (at least I thought I understood). But now it seems my car is trying too hard to hunt for the right boost target/load target. Here's what I changed in two separate iterations, I bring you some lolz....

These are the same for both iterations.
Boost Target:
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Tuning/BoostTarg.jpg

WGDC Target:
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Tuning/v40WGDC.jpg

These are from 1st iteration
1st Iteration 4th Load Targ
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Tuning/v404thLoad.jpg

1st Iteration Error Comp
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Tuning/v40Error.jpg

1st Iteration Log
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Tuning/v40Chart.jpg

These are from 2nd iteration.
2nd Iteration 4th Load Targ
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Tuning/v41Load.jpg

2nd Iteration Error Comp
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Tuning/v41Error.jpg

2nd Iteration Log
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Tuning/v41Chart.jpg

So my question is, how should I go about tackling this? I THINK there are a few ways to do it:

1) Lower my WGDC and start over (i.e. start at 20s again and then go from there)
2) Lower the Error Comp tables (both load and boost)
3) Lower the TRL tables
4) Lower the Boost Error Comp table and zero out left hand side of Load Error Comp table

Your usual guidance is much appreciated.

[BlueStreak]

You're trying to load tune exclusively I presume? If you are, it requires some finesse to get it to work.

I have a few steps in my head of how to get you there but in a nut shell, if you are trying to load tune, you have to choose one of the following:
- Are you trying to reach a target boost level (in a load tune)? If so, you need to remove all the load targeting functionality, dial in your boost profile then add back the load targets that coincide with that boost level.
- Are you trying to reach a target load level? If so, figure out the boost targets that are required to get you to that load and dial them in. There's more to it and if you want to go that route, I'm sure Vince can be of more help since he has given full blown load tuning a go.

Essentially what you have in your tune now is that you're trying to reach a load target AND a boost target that are not congruent with each other. The ECU is at odds trying to meet both load and boost targets but they are so far off from each other that it gives you the result you see there.

In other words, boost (or more appropriately, airflow) targets give you a certain calculated load OR load targets give you a certain boost (or more appropriately, airflow).

As an example:
- At 3000 RPM, you target 20PSI on the K04. That'll equate to roughly 2.4 calculated load at the same RPM. If you dial in load targeting to be 2.0 at 3000 RPM while still maintaining the 20PSI boost target, the ECU will freak out and cut WGDC/close the throttle to bring load down, then it realizes that it is missing its boost target so it ups WGDC/opens the throttle to bring boost back up. Then the cycle repeats.

[fywdyl]

You're trying to load tune exclusively I presume? If you are, it requires some finesse to get it to work.

I have a few steps in my head of how to get you there but in a nut shell, if you are trying to load tune, you have to choose one of the following:
- Are you trying to reach a target boost level (in a load tune)? If so, you need to remove all the load targeting functionality, dial in your boost profile then add back the load targets that coincide with that boost level.
- Are you trying to reach a target load level? If so, figure out the boost targets that are required to get you to that load and dial them in. There's more to it and if you want to go that route, I'm sure Vince can be of more help since he has given full blown load tuning a go.

Essentially what you have in your tune now is that you're trying to reach a load target AND a boost target that are not congruent with each other. The ECU is at odds trying to meet both load and boost targets but they are so far off from each other that it gives you the result you see there.

In other words, boost (or more appropriately, airflow) targets give you a certain calculated load OR load targets give you a certain boost (or more appropriately, airflow).

As an example:
- At 3000 RPM, you target 20PSI on the K04. That'll equate to roughly 2.4 calculated load at the same RPM. If you dial in load targeting to be 2.0 at 3000 RPM while still maintaining the 20PSI boost target, the ECU will freak out and cut WGDC/close the throttle to bring load down, then it realizes that it is missing its boost target so it ups WGDC/opens the throttle to bring boost back up. Then the cycle repeats.

....and thus the squiggly boost.

I'm trying to hybrid tune. What I did before was I zeroed out Load Dynamics AND Load Error Comp AND set load at 2.3 onwards. The first iteration was trying to place the calc load values from a log into the TRL tables, and as you can see, it did the squiggly thing. Then I lowered the load a bit and it squiggled a bit less.

[Fobio]

Maybe this will help you =)

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?55378-Fobio-s-MS3-w-GT3071R-and-Big-MAF&p=819804&viewfull=1#post819804

[fywdyl]

Maybe this will help you =)

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?55378-Fobio-s-MS3-w-GT3071R-and-Big-MAF&p=819804&viewfull=1#post819804

Vince, thanks for your detailed explanation. Don't want to clog up your thread, so I'm gonna reply here.

I'm going to try to see if I understood what you explained.

In the past, the load was set to the BOOST (i.e. 2.0 load = 20 psi), but now I should be entering the actual load figures in the log.

So what I should be doing is, from my very last tune where I was hitting my boost targets, I will enter the calc load in those logs as my TRL (for whichever gear). I'm assuming that the load below 2000rpm I can leave at OTS values.

Then, I'm not going to try to fine tune the WGDC table (as I have in the past), but I'm going to let the LEC do it for me. Of course, I can't copy your WGDC table because you're big turbo and I doubt I'll need 90 WGDC from 2000 - 3000rpm.

I noticed that on your log, the 3000rpm load target is 2.05, but the logged load is only 1.80, the reason for this is because you want it to spool faster, right?

What is your Boost Error Comp? Does that have an effect on the tune? Also, I'm assuming this is still all done with boost tuning checked off right?

Thanks a bunch!

[Fobio]

Replies in bold.


Vince, thanks for your detailed explanation. Don't want to clog up your thread, so I'm gonna reply here.

I'm going to try to see if I understood what you explained.

In the past, the load was set to the BOOST (i.e. 2.0 load = 20 psi), but now I should be entering the actual load figures in the log.

[Yes]

So what I should be doing is, from my very last tune where I was hitting my boost targets, I will enter the calc load in those logs as my TRL (for whichever gear). I'm assuming that the load below 2000rpm I can leave at OTS values.

[Yes, enter your logged load numbers with a +0.05 uprate. I tune from scratch, according to my flow, but I use 100 WGDC there since the car wil end up commanding 99's anyway]

Then, I'm not going to try to fine tune the WGDC table (as I have in the past), but I'm going to let the LEC do it for me. Of course, I can't copy your WGDC table because you're big turbo and I doubt I'll need 90 WGDC from 2000 - 3000rpm.

[Of course, don't use my WGDC tables, and yes, use LEC to help you correct BOOST thru LOAD adjustment thru WGDC]

I noticed that on your log, the 3000rpm load target is 2.05, but the logged load is only 1.80, the reason for this is because you want it to spool faster, right?

[Not necessarily helping it spool...more like being hopeful...like targetting 1.9 @ 6000rpm... ;)]

What is your Boost Error Comp? Does that have an effect on the tune? Also, I'm assuming this is still all done with boost tuning checked off right?

[All boost tune, and when you look at the OTS BEC values vs. OTS LEC values, you'll see that BEC has much less authority not just in terms of values, but also in the logic chain...basically, on my current setup, all adjustments are done through the LEC table. I have mirrored LEC and BEC before, but then, you wouldn't really know who's doing what anyway. This way, at least I know exactly where the adjustments came from, how much and why]

Thanks a bunch!

[No problemo...good luck! FWIW, this kind of thing is not covered in Abilor's Tooning Guide...]

[fywdyl]

Made the necessary changes. Hopefully I'll have some time tonight to do some logs. I'm starting to understand more and more about what's going on. Thanks guys.

[fywdyl]

Sweet deal guys. Check out the awesomeness.

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/V41toV42.jpg

No more squiggly boost! :)

Also, the boost is limited nicely in 2nd, (max it hit was about 16 psi). I'm still getting super rich in 1st when I floor it. Not sure where in the logic would cause this.

Anyway, all that's left is some fine tuning and then I should be set for dyno day.

Thank you so much for all your explanations!

[Fobio]

make sure all you fuel tables match. and when you floor it in first, did DSC kick in?

[fywdyl]

Fuel tables are all matched up except for the knocking ones.
DSC is off, but that might be it because I'm pedal to the metal but the throttle position is not full opened.

[fywdyl]

Figured out why it gets super rich in first gear, I believe it's because of the SWAS. I guess you can't tune around that, and the only way to stop that from happening is to disconnect the SWAS, which is not something that I want to do.

So for the past little while, I've been trying to squeeze a bit more out of the car, and as proven by dyno day, I think I failed. Ha ha. I've tried several things and it seems like I'm nearing the limits. Here's a VD plot of the most recent few changes.

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/VDPlot.jpg

Green line was when I was Stage 1.
Red line targeting 19psi and tapering to 16psi.
Blue line is targeting 20psi and tapering to 17psi.

In the mid rpm range, increasing boost does get me more power, but in the higher range, I start to knock and I'm not flowing anymore than when it was less boost. Timing wise, I think I'm at the limit in the top end too, cuz any more would cause me to knock. I'm running Shell 91, and would like to continue to do so, but if it's time to make the switch to Petro 94, then I guess I'll give it a go.

Attached are the relevant logs from the plots, do I have any more room to work with or do you guys think I'm at the limit with the mods I have? I'm gonna give it another try this weekend, so any tips would be great.

Thanks!

[fywdyl]

Last tuning logs of the season. Recently switched from 91 to 94 cuz of knock. Car feels good now, my butt dyno doesn't feel much though, maybe cuz I got used to it.

Anyway, here are the VD plots and attached are the associated logs. The v5.0 log is very close to the results from the last dyno day.

Uncorrected: 278 whp/335 wtq from 244 whp/293 wtq
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/v50vsv61_uncorr.jpg

Corrected: 265 whp/320 wtq from 239 whp/287 wtq
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/v50vsv61_corr-1.jpg

Made some decent gains since then. Next year, I plan to get a meth kit and maybe some other goodies.

In the mean time, I'll prob play with the new APP tables for Gen2 that was just released last night. So far, I've set the throttle to be 1 to 1 with the pedal and shifting feels MUCH smoother.

[loki]

looove the 1:1 throttle

[fywdyl]

looove the 1:1 throttle

Yeah, it's pretty sweet. I've been missing out cuz the Gen2 didn't have APP back then.

[Fobio]

The new OTS map I played with last night came with 1:1 throttle mapping.

[fywdyl]

The new OTS map I played with last night came with 1:1 throttle mapping.

I took a quick look at the CS SRI + IC OTS for Gen2 and didn't notice the 1:1. 1st gear needs a little getting used to, but man, shifting is awesome!

[Mr Wilson]

So that's why the car was so good this morning. Thought it may have been a placebo effect to the intercooler going in. Sweet deal!

[fywdyl]

Tuning for better gas mileage... anyone try that out yet?

From what I've read, some have been getting 2-5 mpg by upping the AFR and timing. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

[Fobio]

Tuning for better gas mileage... anyone try that out yet?

From what I've read, some have been getting 2-5 mpg by upping the AFR and timing. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

last I heard was John/PTP trying out 18.x AFR @ cruising loads. unless you do a lot of hwy driving, I don't know if it'll make much difference.

driving stop and go in the city is the worst thing for gas mileage...I can see your efforts being better used to tune for something else, other than for fuel eonomy.

[fywdyl]

last I heard was John/PTP trying out 18.x AFR @ cruising loads. unless you do a lot of hwy driving, I don't know if it'll make much difference.

driving stop and go in the city is the worst thing for gas mileage...I can see your efforts being better used to tune for something else, other than for fuel eonomy.

Makes sense. Thanks Fobio.

[CelestSpeed3]

from what I've been reading 12.5:1 is optimum for power and 16.2 is optimum for fuel savings. I can't find the article or I would post it up here.

[Fobio]

Makes sense. Thanks Fobio.

one thing I've found rewarding and Paul/Celest can attest to this is once the tune is dialed in (flat maf, consistent boost curve) is to play with timing, which is dangerous, but if you've dialed in your tune, then you should know what you're doing by then. there are also a few tables that are newer now, but may not apply, but looking thru those and understanding the logic may be useful for the coming months.

[fywdyl]

one thing I've found rewarding and Paul/Celest can attest to this is once the tune is dialed in (flat maf, consistent boost curve) is to play with timing, which is dangerous, but if you've dialed in your tune, then you should know what you're doing by then. there are also a few tables that are newer now, but may not apply, but looking thru those and understanding the logic may be useful for the coming months.

I'll be doing a lot of reading for the upcoming months. Thanks guys.

[fywdyl]

I forgot when I read about this, but loki posted something about his MAF curve having breaks in it and it was causing him problems. So I decided to check to see if my MAF curve is messed up as well.

I pulled up the MAF Table A and graphed the volt against the g/s to see if there are any weird bumps. Then I proceeded to try to fit a trend line to the data to see if I can get some sort of smoothness out of it. Basically, by the end of it I used a 3rd degree polynomial curve and it looked to be a good fit. I made some judgmental selections for the final MAF curve (like, the beginning were 0's and I kept that stock).

Once I replaced the MAF Table A with this new curve, I did a regular MAF cal and the figures were within +/-4%.

Fobio also had a theory that we can use the new VE beta tables to fine tune at certain points, but at this point I haven't tested that out yet.

Attached is the file that I used to smooth the curve, it might be kinda hard to follow, so my apologies.

[fywdyl]

Interesting post over on MSF which is similar to what I was trying to do above with the curve fit, except someone made an app that does it for you.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f505/enkiworks-kalibrator-111249/

[fywdyl]

Weird sounds from turbo logs (sounds like a supercharger):

[Fobio]

the 4th gear log is the one I looked at last night, I think. doesn't appear to have anything amiss. it could be an exhuast leak.

[fywdyl]

Finally got a moment to look at the logs. Nothing seems out of the ordinary. I did notice that it is taking more WG to hold the same amount of boost as it did in my previous logs, but that may be affected by the weather?

[fywdyl]

the 4th gear log is the one I looked at last night, I think. doesn't appear to have anything amiss. it could be an exhuast leak.

Thanks Vince! If it's an exhaust leak, I'm prob gonna ignore it and let it sound like that.

[Fobio]

Finally got a moment to look at the logs. Nothing seems out of the ordinary. I did notice that it is taking more WG to hold the same amount of boost as it did in my previous logs, but that may be affected by the weather?

I was going to ask about WGDC actually.

I was going to ask if it's using more WGDC to hit your targets, and you've confirmed it. Having said that, your WGDC isn't maxing out to hit your targets, so that's good. If anything it might be a very minor leak for it to be of such high frequency [the sound]. If you're need more WGDC tohit targets, that might actually help you pinpoint the leak.

[fywdyl]

I was going to ask about WGDC actually.

I was going to ask if it's using more WGDC to hit your targets, and you've confirmed it. Having said that, your WGDC isn't maxing out to hit your targets, so that's good. If anything it might be a very minor leak for it to be of such high frequency [the sound]. If you're need more WGDC tohit targets, that might actually help you pinpoint the leak.

Thanks for the tip. Either way I'll give the car a look over this weekend.

[fywdyl]

Tried to tighten stuff down a couple nights ago. The sound seems to have gone away. I will check again tonight and perhaps post some logs to see if the WG has gone down.

Thanks again Vince and Paul for helping me diagnose the problem.

[fywdyl]

OK, here are some results after the IM and TIG install. I'm still throwing a P0300, but I don't see anything out of the ordinary. The "K04_final_v2" are for diagnosis of the code. Perhaps an extra set (or sets) of eyes will help.

The "3rd_run_before/after" logs shows the difference in BAT vs IAT before and after the TIG install. I also did the coolant bypass as well. What I am most interested in here is not the nominal BAT value, but the delta of BAT and IAT (as the logs were taken in different temps, but on the same stretch of road).

The deltas from "before TIG" ranged from +21.6 to +46.8. After installing the TIG and doing coolant bypass, the deltas ranged from +10.8 to +30.6. I stopped looking at the deltas after 6k rpm as I did not go past 6k rpm in one of the runs. A nice improvement if I may say so myself.

Will post VDs once I sort out the CEL problem.

[Fobio]

I'm not sure if my diagnosis will help with the CEL:

1. Your calculated loads are quite high for the boost you''re running. For reference a similar car to yours running similar boost is hitting about 2.23 load.

2. Your wot AFR's could prolly use some tweaking. Nothing wrong with targeting 11.8 @ 2500 and have it taper down to 11 @ redline.

3. Your MAF air flow, which is a product of the MAF calc is way high. For comparison, a similarly modded MS3 making ~290 - 300whp, tuned on Ultra94 pulls about 270g/s.

That's it for now. I know none of what I observed can pinpoint any tuning issue that may cause P0300. And that might be it; it is unlikely to be tune related and more likely to be mechnical. Are you able to get under the car with the undertray off so you can inspect for any loose connections from the bottom up?

[fywdyl]

I'm not sure if my diagnosis will help with the CEL:

1. Your calculated loads are quite high for the boost you''re running. For reference a similar car to yours running similar boost is hitting about 2.23 load.

2. Your wot AFR's could prolly use some tweaking. Nothing wrong with targeting 11.8 @ 2500 and have it taper down to 11 @ redline.

3. Your MAF air flow, which is a product of the MAF calc is way high. For comparison, a similarly modded MS3 making ~290 - 300whp, tuned on Ultra94 pulls about 270g/s.

That's it for now. I know none of what I observed can pinpoint any tuning issue that may cause P0300. And that might be it; it is unlikely to be tune related and more likely to be mechnical. Are you able to get under the car with the undertray off so you can inspect for any loose connections from the bottom up?

Thanks for the pointers.

The calc load prob has something to do with the over inflated MAF. That'll get fixed as soon as I figure out the CEL problem. I'll prob start from a brand new base map.

As for running 11.8, I used to run that, but I saw no difference in performance going from 11.8 to 11.5, but I like the idea of a taper so I'll most likely do that too.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a mechanical problem since I didn't do anything with the tune. The plan is to tighten the TIP on Friday night, and if problem persists, I'll do a deeper dive.

[fywdyl]

Got some logs tonight.

Dark Green and Orange are after ported IM and tune.

Pink is after ported IM with no changes to tune.

Turquoise is before IM and old tune.

Conclusion: adding ported IM alone does nothing without making changes to the tune.

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/IMnotuneVSIMtunedVSnoIM.jpg

[fywdyl]

First BT WOT log.

Blue is final k04 tune @ 20 psi, red is BT @ spring pressure ~16 psi. Let the tuning begin!!!

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Tuning/BTBasevsK04Final.jpg

[rzapata]

16 PSI huh? Damn BT's a monster. :chuckle :thumbsup

[BlueStreak]

Looking good Anson.

Be sure to back off timing some as well before you start upping boost.

[loki]

16 PSI huh? Damn BT's a monster. :chuckle :thumbsup

You need to start somewhere

[fywdyl]

Looking good Anson.

Be sure to back off timing some as well before you start upping boost.

Yup my max timing right now is 10*. I also lowered the timing by 1.5 to 2 degrees in the lower rpms

[rzapata]

You need to start somewhere

Yup. Was gonna say, if the BT gets something like that at 16psi, whew... All I can say. Good stuff Anson.

[fywdyl]

Super excited to get this bad boy finalized.

[BlueStreak]

Could you start the pull @2K RPMs next time? :)

You're hitting 16PSI by ~3200 RPMs but you only went WOT at ~2800RPMs. I'm sure you'll hit 16PSI even sooner; this will also be an indicator as to how quickly you can get to 20PSI.

Oh and log VVT advance. It will come in handy ;)

[fywdyl]

Could you start the pull @2K RPMs next time? :)

You're hitting 16PSI by ~3200 RPMs but you only went WOT at ~2800RPMs. I'm sure you'll hit 16PSI even sooner; this will also be an indicator as to how quickly you can get to 20PSI.

Oh and log VVT advance. It will come in handy ;)

Yessir!

[Fobio]

With the additonal preload of the WGA done by Bluestreak, I'm hoping you'll have better spool-on than I did.

EDIT: are you boost tuning? did you neuter the Load Corection tables to ensure they weren't adding WGDC to hit loads?

[fywdyl]

I'll try to do another log tonight and start at 2K. I haven't touched the boost or WG yet though, but will move on to that if I'm hitting the correct AFRs. Thanks Vince & Dave.

[BlueStreak]

Oh and another thing. Post your logs!

:pop

[fywdyl]

Attached logs are associated with the VD above.

Prob won't get to log tonight... it started to rain :(

[BlueStreak]

320g/s is serious flow for 16PSI.

This car is gonna be fast.

[rzapata]

EDIT: Nevermind. Looks like my $%&# is messed up. :chuckle

[fywdyl]

320g/s is serious flow for 16PSI.

This car is gonna be fast.

I was quite surprised myself. But it may be the maf scaling though. Either way I'm excited.

[BlueStreak]

I was quite surprised myself. But it may be the maf scaling though. Either way I'm excited.

Your AFRs look nice and flat at 11.4. I'm assuming you calibrated the WOT portion no?

[fywdyl]

Your AFRs look nice and flat at 11.4. I'm assuming you calibrated the WOT portion no?

I guess I was lucky cuz I didn't have to cal the wot portion.

[Snotrocket]

sorry, not to thread jack but i really want to see these logs... anyone able to explain to me why my excel for mac opens some logs like this so i cant read them?

http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a496/lockezeee/wtfcopy.jpg

[rzapata]

^^ I guess it's not just me...

[BlueStreak]

Make it semicolon delimited as opposed to comma delimited.

[fywdyl]

sorry, not to thread jack but i really want to see these logs... anyone able to explain to me why my excel for mac opens some logs like this so i cant read them?

http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a496/lockezeee/wtfcopy.jpg

Because MAC.

It's my fault actually, I was on my laptop and I saved the file in a weird format. Sorry dudes.

[Snotrocket]

Make it semicolon delimited as opposed to comma delimited.


I just got a headache.

[Snotrocket]

It's my fault actually, I was on my laptop and I saved the file in a weird format. Sorry dudes.

Because PC

[fywdyl]

I just got a headache.

Mike, open Excel. Try to import the file instead of opening it directly. There should be an option for a delimiter and select the semicolon ; if not, PM me I'll just send you the file.

[Snotrocket]

Mike, open Excel. Try to import the file instead of opening it directly. There should be an option for a delimiter and select the semicolon ; if not, PM me I'll just send you the file.

Cool, at work.... Ill try when we get back to the station. Out on a standby for another area.

[rzapata]

Make it semicolon delimited as opposed to comma delimited.

Works like a charm. :thumbsup

Awesome numbers Anson!

[fywdyl]

Works like a charm. :thumbsup

Awesome numbers Anson!

Thanks! Stupid rain... I wanna go out to do a few logs...

[BlueStreak]

Today was a nice day.

... logs?

[loki]

Today was a nice day.

... logs?

He's calling you out

[Snotrocket]

The only logs he has are the ones in his pants after dialling the boost up!

[fywdyl]

No logs today. I was out with a friend all day. I will get some tmrw thou.

[fywdyl]

Some logs from today. Not much change, trying to up WGDC slowly to hit targets.

[Snotrocket]

Don't forget Vince's equation...

What was it again? Targeted boost divided by observed boost. Multiply your WGDC in that RPM range by this value to dial it in.

[fywdyl]

Don't forget Vince's equation...

What was it again? Targeted boost divided by observed boost. Multiply your WGDC in that RPM range by this value to dial it in.

But my WGDC started at 0, ha ha.

[Fobio]

Anson. You will find that with this particular turbo you're gonna have to be ruthless in the beginning with wgdc to dial it in. Hack and slash with a flamethrower. Heavy handed.

[loki]

But my WGDC started at 0, ha ha.

thats why you don't start at 0

[fywdyl]

Anson. You will find that with this particular turbo you're gonna have to be ruthless in the beginning with wgdc to dial it in. Hack and slash with a flamethrower. Heavy handed.

I like that. Tuning Rambo styles.

[BlueStreak]

Anson. You will find that with this particular turbo you're gonna have to be ruthless in the beginning with wgdc to dial it in. Hack and slash with a flamethrower. Heavy handed.

Agreed.

You're at a max of 16PSI looking to target 20-21PSI I'm guessing. I would look into starting in the 30-40% WGDC region for the *full boost* portion of the rev range. Once you get that dialed in, start adding WGDC in the spool up region (2800-3500RPMs) to get it up to speed as quickly as you want/what is possible.

[fywdyl]

Progress report: V1.1 was on spring pressure. V1.2 is targetting 18 psi.

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Tuning/BTV11vsBTV12.jpg

Next step is to target the final psi and fine tune boost ramp up from there.

Attached are the associated logs.

[Snotrocket]

Progress report: V1.1 was on spring pressure. V1.2 is targetting 18 psi.

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Tuning/BTV11vsBTV12.jpg

Next step is to target the final psi and fine tune boost ramp up from there.

Attached are the associated logs.

And only 10 degrees timing. Lots of room all around.... Very nice.

[BlueStreak]

You making more power yet? :)

[fywdyl]

You making more power yet? :)

Trying to... I haven't got around to posting my most recent logs yet.

I was reading about the SURE Halos on MSF and how they are super failing, so gonna take the seals out this weekend to see how mine are holding up. I've already ordered some Toyota seals in the mean time in case the SURE seals are mangled.

edit: Also, I just changed to snow tires, so any logs I take may just be of the wheels spinning.

[BlueStreak]

Yeah. Those SURE units are failing something fierce. Gonna be a PITA to pull and swap them.

4th gear logs can hold a decent amount of torque without wheelspin as long as it doesn't get too cold.

[fywdyl]

But my tire's speed rating is only R...

[BlueStreak]

I don't even know what the speed rating of my tires are :p

[Fobio]

But my tire's speed rating is only R...

that's why you do 3 runs...2 to warm tires...and hopefuly 3rd one sticks. ;)

[Mr Wilson]

I was reading about the SURE Halos on MSF and how they are super failing, so gonna take the seals out this weekend to see how mine are holding up. I've already ordered some Toyota seals in the mean time in case the SURE seals are mangled.

Was wondering if you saw that.

You can borrow my winters, good to 240 km/h.

[Fack_Dude]

Or you can borrow my shit snow tires which over 200 logs and counting......lol

[fywdyl]

that's why you do 3 runs...2 to warm tires...and hopefuly 3rd one sticks. ;)

Yup, that sounds like a solid plan!


Was wondering if you saw that.

You can borrow my winters, good to 240 km/h.

Wheels already on. If I swap them again that'll be another 2 hrs at Molasses.


Or you can borrow my shit snow tires which over 200 logs and counting......lol

And now you have over 400whp. Maybe we're on to something...

[fywdyl]

Installed the honeycomb. Fixed up the richness on let-off, but messed up my WOT AFRs. I also fixed my seals this past weekend, so maybe that had something to do with it too.

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/BT_NoMeth_V16.jpg

[Snotrocket]

Boost falls off at 6000 then ramps back up? Mad rich....

[fywdyl]

Boost falls off at 6000 then ramps back up? Mad rich....

Air flow straightener made it mad rich.

[loki]

notice any difference since changing out the seals?

[fywdyl]

notice any difference since changing out the seals?

A little bit... the car seems to be quieter.

[loki]

A little bit... the car seems to be quieter.

yeh no VTA through your injectors

[fywdyl]

yeh no VTA through your injectors

Ummmm, it's VTI, get with the times man...

[loki]

Ummmm, it's VTI, get with the times man...

loki invented "the times"

[fywdyl]

Latest logs:
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/BTNoMethV21.jpg

Wasn't gripping right for the log in blue, but boost and AFRs are in check. It's time for POWAH!!!!

Associated logs attached.

[BlueStreak]

You haz powah yet?

[fywdyl]

You haz powah yet?

I've been super sick the past week. I haven't driven in a week. My head is too hazy.

[pwdunmore]

purple hazy? lol :thumbsup Your logs give me inspiration to start tuning my car as soon as I get my stage 2 upgrades in

[fywdyl]

purple hazy? lol :thumbsup Your logs give me inspiration to start tuning my car as soon as I get my stage 2 upgrades in

I'm glad at least one person feels motivated! *ahem loki*

No need to wait for stg2 to get started. You can tune at any point in time.

[loki]

I'm motivated for wonton soup

[fywdyl]

I did a couple of logs two nights ago and here are the results... I blame it on the crappy winter gas.

Since the last set of logs, Alex helped me fix a few boost leaks. I think it may be time to install the meth kit. Still waiting on Lex to post a how-to for using the stock WWF pump on a Gen2. (unless one of the gurus on TM3 can chime in?)

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/Logs_zps1c7192aa.jpg

Red and green are the most recent runs, blue was the previous version. I was getting some knock so the timing was off and I gotta fix up the WG dynamics cuz it's over-correcting right now.

Logs attached.

[BlueStreak]

This is looking good, Anson. With meth and a little bit more timing (still well in the safe zone), you'll have 350whp. 15* by 6K with a nice ramp up will get you there I'd say.

If you're looking for more power beyond that, I suggest turning up the boost instead of adding more spark advance.

EDIT: What are your target AFRs? What octane? Vince and I have been getting great results with Ultra 94 at the moment.

[fywdyl]

This is looking good, Anson. With meth and a little bit more timing (still well in the safe zone), you'll have 350whp. 15* by 6K with a nice ramp up will get you there I'd say.

If you're looking for more power beyond that, I suggest turning up the boost instead of adding more spark advance.

EDIT: What are your target AFRs? What octane? Vince and I have been getting great results with Ultra 94 at the moment.

11.83 taper to about 11.47. Might have been a bad batch or something, cuz it wasn't like that previously.

Turning up boost would equal 3-bar map, but I agree, I'd rather add boost than to add more timing.

[breakfasteatre]

anson, that is what ive done dude, if you want to install, let me know

[fywdyl]

anson, that is what ive done dude, if you want to install, let me know

You drill hole in tank! But you don't have to do that. I was gonna get a T and tap the line.

[BlueStreak]

Can't you just T off the WWF pump like the GenWans? I haven't seen a pu without a bumper so I can't say definitively.

[breakfasteatre]

den do it, no excuses now, bitch

[fywdyl]

Can't you just T off the WWF pump like the GenWans? I haven't seen a pu without a bumper so I can't say definitively.

Lex made a post on MSF saying that you need another check valve if you do that (genpu thing?). I'm just waiting for him to update his post with some directions and I'll do it.

[breakfasteatre]

I have another check valve, its some sort of electronic one

[fywdyl]

I have another check valve, its some sort of electronic one

Solenoid?

[BlueStreak]

Ahem.... bump.

[fywdyl]

Ha ha, BUT IT'S SO COLD!!!!

Still trying to decide which route to go in terms of installing the meth kit. If I tap the tank, I just need the self sealing tap, but if I wanna tap the lines, I need a whole crap load of "T"s and a WW check valve, etc etc. Opinions?

[Snotrocket]

Why meth? It's -25 :)

[fywdyl]

Why meth? It's -25 :)

Do you really have to ask Mike?

BECAUSE RACE CAR!!! Ha ha

[loki]

Why meth? It's -25 :)

better to install now. Doesn't mean you have to have it active

[BlueStreak]

The T method is easily reversible (this is what I have) but at this point, I'm not sure its the best. I have a leak somewhere and have been driving around methless as a result.

[fywdyl]

Well, did some logs last night. It was super cold and my tires never really hooked up. Also, I didn't go to my usual spot in Mexico, so it's not really comparable to the older logs.

3rd gear logs, didn't even bother with entering the correction factors:
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/WheelSpinofDeath_zps16181bb3.jpg

4th gear logs:
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad78/fywdyl/Logs/WheelSpinofDeath_2_zpsd67bedaf.jpg

It seems as though the timing is maxing out from the 4500 to 5500 range. I can bump up the timing from 6000 and beyond though. Right now it's at 13.5 @ 6000.

[BlueStreak]

The blue log on the second set of graphs looks indicative of a proper torque value before wheelspin later on. Looking good :)

[fywdyl]

The blue log on the second set of graphs looks indicative of a proper torque value before wheelspin later on. Looking good :)

Yeah, the blue one looks promising, and the boost is more steady now. When it warms up a bit, I'll go to my usual spot and the no meth tune should be finalized.

[fywdyl]

Ran into a little snag...

So recently I've been getting knock in the upper RPMs. The knock went away when I turned the boost and timing down (but I only did one log), and then when I turned the boost back up, the knock came back.

Is it time for 2-step colder plugs? Or will meth suffice? Or do both as insurance?

Logs attached.

[Snotrocket]

you shouldnt be anywhere near knock threshold... 20 lbs and 9 degrees timing is nothing... i question how real it is... or, i wonder how toyota seals are holding up.... Spray meth and see what happens.

[Fobio]

Ran into a little snag...

So recently I've been getting knock in the upper RPMs. The knock went away when I turned the boost and timing down (but I only did one log), and then when I turned the boost back up, the knock came back.

Is it time for 2-step colder plugs? Or will meth suffice? Or do both as insurance?

Logs attached.

How old are the plugs? Was traction control on?

Lastly...are your load targets adjusted for the loads you're making?

[fywdyl]

you shouldnt be anywhere near knock threshold... 20 lbs and 9 degrees timing is nothing... i question how real it is... or, i wonder how toyota seals are holding up.... Spray meth and see what happens.

If I take the seals off to check, I'll have to change them again. I may take a peak today.


How old are the plugs? Was traction control on?

Lastly...are your load targets adjusted for the loads you're making?

Plugs are around 20k, traction control off, load was logged load ~+ 0.05.

[fywdyl]

Just hooked up the meth and did a few logs on the same map and....

Knock is gone. Good old meth is doing it's job.

[loki]

Keep an eye on it

But sounds good so far