HTA 144 (18)

[SilentJay]

Sooo... To make a terrible day a thousand times worse, I received my first ticket in about 10 years. I posted this on a ticket-advice forum, but figured someone here might have some experience too.


"I was just pulled over about an hour ago for a supposed failure to stop at red light. For anyone familiar with the area, I was exiting the Hurontario ramp of the 401 making a left turn onto Hurontario. Because there is so much construction rubble at the intersection, I slowed as I crossed the white line to make the left, crossing the line while the light was still green but noticing that the light turned amber a second or two after. I was mid-way into the intersection travelling at around 45-50km/h, completing the turn as the light turns red immediately in front of me. The police officer was at the light behind me, and pulled me over in a small artery road shortly after.

Do I have a reasonable defence (re: construction rubble and being 3/4 though the intersection before the light went red)? I'm very distraught as I haven't been pulled over for anything like this :( Any and all advice is very welcome and appreciated!"

[Thrizzl3]

take a picture of the intersection and where you were when the light was green and where you were when the light was red. if you were passed the white line when the light was green then your fine. it's when you pass the white line on a red and proceed through the intersection that it is a failure to stop. i am fighting the same ticket as i was in the middle of an intersection at an amber light and i was pulled over for running a red light :loco

[SilentJay]

^^^ I'll try, but it's tough to take a picture there since there aren't any sidewalks. I can have a passenger take a picture, but it'll be tough to get a good shot while the car is in motion.

[n00bMeiSter]

^^^ I'll try, but it's tough to take a picture there since there aren't any sidewalks. I can have a passenger take a picture, but it'll be tough to get a good shot while the car is in motion.

borrow a gopro from someone maybe?

[grex]

I know exactly what you're talking about. I drive over that every single damn day. Its a mess! I would defiantly try and take some pictures, might not be the best but at night would probably be the easiest chance to get the shots you want. Make sure you capture all the loose gravel on the road.

If you felt that you could not safely stop on all the loose gravel and proceeded with caution through the intersection - and word it like that this will be tossed! (keep your fingers crossed) Good Luck.

[-RJ3-]

Avoid hurontario all together. I go burnhamthorpe to mavis

[SilentJay]

^^^ =/ No choice, had to get off the 401 or get stuck in gridlock ahead.

I'm actually planning on heading to the intersection at an ungodly hour on the weekend, get out at the carpool parking and walk over and try to get some shots. I wonder if I can bring a bag of gravel to enhance the image :chuckle

That aside, is there anything else you guys would suggest? A good traffic lawyer? I don't care if I have to pay triple the ticket rate - I don't want this on my record!

[kal-el]

just fight the ticket, the cop dont usually show up, its rare when they do and you have a chance of winning the cop was probably just bored and saw your car, i fight my ticket

[Manpreet]

Avoid hurontario all together. I go burnhamthorpe to mavis

+1

[sol_searchin]

You can try to fight the ticket and might get it lowered, but, you don't really have a valid defence to it. It will really come down to your word against his and guess whose word is counted more so than yours? Good luck dude, get a first attendance (Prosecutor meeting).

[SilentJay]

just fight the ticket, the cop dont usually show up, its rare when they do and you have a chance of winning the cop was probably just bored and saw your car, i fight my ticket

Normally i'd agree with you, but this is quite a bit more severe than a speeding ticket...

[SilentJay]

You can try to fight the ticket and might get it lowered, but, you don't really have a valid defence to it. It will really come down to your word against his and guess whose word is counted more so than yours? Good luck dude, get a first attendance (Prosecutor meeting).

First attendance = trial option? Or is it the guilty plea with submission on fine?

[Sparcas]

First attendance is when you speak with the prosecutor prior to trial. The prosecutor will typically knock off the points or lowers the fine.

If you have no other tickets on your record, this won't make any difference on your insurance premiums.

If you go the X-Copper/Points route, most likely they'll "fight for you" but a lot of the time you end up forking out $300 to have them get the same deal you were going to get by going to first attendance/pre-trial negotiations with the prosecutor. They do however do all the booking, re-booking, and apparently have access to case law that can sometimes be beneficial in court. (Or so they say)

The law is all open to interpretation, and the interpretation is always backed by the prosecutor and the courts... If you do decide to fight it yourself, your best option is to book a trial date, then re-schedule (motion for continuance?) for a later date. Typically, this may conflict with the officers schedule as multiple proceedings are arranged on the same date for the officer. This is typically what my previous paralegals would do when they fight for you. YOU MUST HAVE A LEGIT REASON TO CHANGE THE DATE.

So here's what runs through my head;

-Do you want to just pay the full amount? (Worst Option....)
-Do you want to pay a lawyer the full amount of the ticket to fight for you with an 100% chance that he'll "win"? (Winning could be 100% absolution of the ticket or ...lowered fine+points)

-Do you want to spend the time yourself motioning for a later date, gathering evidence, stressing about a ticket?
-Do you want to take the easy route and show up for first attendance, or speak with the prosecutor prior to trial and negotiate a lower fine?

Your best option IMO, is to setup a trial date. Typically, the court system is backlogged by 6 months(Not sure about it now...it's been a while...) This gives you time to weigh out your options, gather evidence, decide if you want to have someone fight on your behalf.

I've been down this road too many times. The law is silly and unjust in many ways.

Good luck, sir.

[SilentJay]

=/ I don't care if I have to pay $2000, I just don't want this conviction on my abstract

[2zoom]

=/ I don't care if I have to pay $2000, I just don't want this conviction on my abstract

+1 with insurance rates these days I don't blame you for saying that. Insurance companies are just looking for an excuse to raise rates these....:flaming
Good luck in the fight and hope you win. If you are interested PM me my dad has a friend that was cop and now he fights tickets, he did me a huge favor awhile ago.

[SilentJay]

PMed, thanks :)

I've actually been losing sleep over this for the past few days. Not only is it a matter of driver abstract/insurance, it has a domino effect on my disposable income for years to come!

[cwp_sedan]

I had a red light ticket before but I was trapped in the intersection by a car in front of me which forced me to turn on a red. I managed to get out of the ticket completely using Pointts but they can't guarantee you a win. That's the only downside.

My trial was bumped 3 times (1x by me and 2x by my representative) which made the trial 2 years later and the cop STILL showed up. I was the only ticket that he had to come to court for that day and he still managed to come. So definitely DO NOT think that the cop won't show, especially over this type of ticket.

I would try to have someone fight it for you unless you are a very strong speaker, have extensive knowledge of the HTA and other tricks that will help you. It's basically going to be your word against his. That's how mine was. There were some items that the cop wasn't too sure about like how he didn't actually see me enter the intersection when it was red, along with some other stuff and that gave a little bit of reasonable doubt and that's why the ticket was thrown out.

If the cop sticks to his story even if it is a lie, it may be a difficult case. As long as it was green when you were in the intersection you can use that in your arsenal. You had to slow down because of the construction which slowed your progress through the intersection while green and ultimately caused you to finish the turn on the red. You were being cautious because of the construction, not driving aggressively to get through the light.

[SilentJay]

Thanks :)

I'm trying to find some good representation right now.

[SilentJay]

Is there anyone with a decent-quality camera near the 401/Hurontario area that would be willing to help me take some shots of the intersection? I tried with my cruddy camera phone but it didn't capture many details.

[m_a_t_r_i_x]

Let me share my experiemce....

Got the same ticket last yr. Requested for a trial, I represented myself and gathered my own evidence since I believe I have a good reason and not an excuse.

6 months later got a letter for the trial date/locatiion. I requested for a disclosure , didnt get it.

9 months later...my court date, 12 of us in the court room. Prosecutor offered me for lesser charge , but I insisted on fighting it. So i pleaded not guilty.

When its my turn, the cop didnt showed up and I was a happy man :) charges dropped.

Goodluck , maybe youll get lucky like me :)

P.S. Waiting for the trial is the pain in the ass, you have that "worry" of uncertainty....

[SilentJay]

^^^ I pray that's what'll happen, but until then, i'm scared witless.

[sharkbait]

I agree with what majority of what the members are saying. Take your own pictures. Not only may it be your best choice, but also good practise just in case this was to ever happen again in the future. It's good to be self aware and educate yourself through experience.

I am aware of the mess that the construction guys at that intersection have made. It sure confused the hell out of me seeing as how everyday there is some new change to how the road is being directed. The area where the rocks and all the construction cones are, I am sure you can walk to there...That is, if there isn't any workers working on that particular corner when you go to take pictures.
From what I remember, that intersection grew rapidly. If you were making that turn, in order for you to have a clear view of traffic flow, you'd need to be over the white line, which then indicates that your turn that was made on the amber light would only mean that you were exiting the intersection when it was safe to do so. So technically, from your story, it doesn't seem to me that you ran a red light.
It's only really running a red light once you've entered the intersection on an amber, aware that the light would turn red before you cleared the intersection.

Peel Police do have a quota to fullfill and this month may be ticketing month for them. Some cops have to achieve a certain amount of tickets per month/shift. It may be that you just so happened to be in the wrong spot a the wrong time..

Hope you get this all cleared up.
I'm sure you'll be okay. Don't read to much into it. Just take it as it comes.

All the best!

[SilentJay]

Thanks :) I think i'll need to pony up $150-200 and buy myself a point-and-shoot camera =/

[hatthi]

just fight the ticket, the cop dont usually show up, its rare when they do and you have a chance of winning the cop was probably just bored and saw your car, i fight my ticket

If you're lucky the cop won't show. But just keep in mind that they get paid to attend court even when they're off duty.

[SilentJay]

More importantly, the charge is pretty significant, so they may make it a point to show.

[fini]

Jay, I can come with you to the site and snap pictures with my camera.
We can park at the gas station on Britannia / Hurontario and see if we can shuffle over at a time with less traffic.
Or, we can do a "drive by shooting" lol

That section of road is borderline dangerous. As said, it has changed a lot on a frequeny basis. At night time, drivers swerve all over the place because they don't know where the lanes are until the last second.

[SilentJay]

Jay, I can come with you to the site and snap pictures with my camera.
We can park at the gas station on Britannia / Hurontario and see if we can shuffle over at a time with less traffic.
Or, we can do a "drive by shooting" lol That section of road is borderline dangerous. As said, it has changed a lot on a frequeny basis. At night time, drivers swerve all over the place because they don't know where the lanes are until the last second.

Thank you very much for the offer :) I don't think it'd be right for me to drag you out at an ungodly hour to do this though. I was planning on parking at the gas station at around 5AM (daybreak basically) on a weekend morning and walking out to the intersection to snap some shots.

[fini]

Even at 5AM there might still be some traffic so be careful out there! I would strongly recommend the use of a reflective vest as a precaution. I've got one of those I could lend you too if you don't have one.

[SilentJay]

Good tip, I might just take you up on the vest offer. I seem to recall a bit of a curb/island at the intersection, so i'll try to snap some shots there.

[bluemazda3]

good luck! hope the cop doesnt show..

[SilentJay]

Bumping this from the grave, I had a chance to take some pictures about a week or so ago, still need to find a good defence lawyer. Anyone have a good suggestion?

[SilentJay]

*poke*

[n00bMeiSter]

XCopper?

[Hoodzy]

Wow that's an effing brutal.. It's pretty much common societal acceptance of going through a red on a left turn. You are supposed to sit in the intersection and wait until it's safe to do so ie yellow/red then you go. What an effing twat cop. Fight it as hard as you can.

[SilentJay]

Yet another bump from the crypt... My trial is tomorrow :S I won't get any sleep at all, I haven't been eating properly... Please oh please oh please don't show, mr. officer...

[Hoodzy]

Cops are morons.. 80% of the tickets they issue aren't even warranted.

[greaves82]

Sorry for posting late but I just came across this thread now, after going through my copy of the HTA and my fines book, I am not really sure why he charged you with Section 144(18) if he was going to charge you under that section it should have been failure to stop for a yellow signal. He must have been in a bad mood for something who knows. However, along with the photos of the construction going on, you migh also have to try and prove that when you entered the intersection you had a green light and once you got into the intersection the light turned to yellow.

Hopefully the cop doesnt show up, good luck with the trial

[PCLoadLetter]

Best of luck tomorrow!

[Thrizzl3]

Good Luck Jay!

[SilentJay]

=/ Stupid waste of time. My trial got adjourned because they HAD to break for lunch, 1/2 way through.

[xxSlidewaysxx]

research file form 4F, <<< unconstituional delay<<<<<< 11 months is the timeline............

[Ogata]

=/ Stupid waste of time. My trial got adjourned because they HAD to break for lunch, 1/2 way through.

Wha wha WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA? So you have to come back another time? What was the result? Did the cop show up?

[SilentJay]

Yeah, I have to go back again, take another day off work... AND pay my paralegal an additional fee.

The officer did show up for the trial, unfortunately.

[-RJ3-]

Officers get paid to show up..... Thats there incentive.... Good luck bro.

[SilentJay]

The saga continues... So the paralegal called me up to say that the judge for my case apparently decided he isn't going to show up tomorrow.

So after fighting a week for a day off to appear in court, it appears yet another one of my days has been wasted. I apparently have to show up tomorrow for them to adjourn AGAIN and reschedule... Denying me closure to get on with my life. WTF? :( so fuming mad

[SilentJay]

:( x 10000

Finally got some measure of closure, just not the result I was hoping for. The judge misquoted my testimony while crafting and rendering his verdict. So now I need to decide whether to continue this super-lengthy, inconvenient and increasingly expensive experience by filing for an appeal. I've already paid off the fine, and have ordered more ($$$$) transcripts of this past session to give myself the option to appeal if necessary.

That said, I was told in-passing by an insurance customer service rep that if I didn't have any prior convictions within 3 years, and if I "stay clean" for the next 3, this shouldn't affect my rates. Can anyone chime in on that? If it genuinely doesn't affect my rates at all, I'm contemplating just leaving everything as-is and skipping the appeal.

[Sparcas]

Just trollin' through my old threads....Not sure if you're still subscribed to this thread... :/

If your record is clean (all but 1 ticket) it won't affect your rates. Even with 1 minor ticket/1 accident, it didn't go up. I currently have no tickets on my record, 1 accident(not at fault).
This year I'm paying about $140/month, was paying $150/month last year...

Then again, I'm a year older, and married.

Don't sweat your disposable income over ONE ticket, overall you probably won't even notice much of a difference in your insurance rates.

In my own opinion, the entire system is broken. The government has stepped in, but we haven't seen much improvement in end-user costs. (At least compared to USA rates).
All we have seen is a reduction in benefits, to help prevent those trying to take advantage of the system.

[leungalv]

The saga continues... So the paralegal called me up to say that the judge for my case apparently decided he isn't going to show up tomorrow.

So after fighting a week for a day off to appear in court, it appears yet another one of my days has been wasted. I apparently have to show up tomorrow for them to adjourn AGAIN and reschedule... Denying me closure to get on with my life. WTF? :( so fuming mad

I don't know if you have dealt with this matter yet, also didn't read the whole thread ... but as general advice, any delay by the prosecutor or courts usually works in your favor. You / your paralegal should have mentioned that when fighting the ticket. You operated in good faith in showing up for court taking time out of your day and work to show up for court. The paralegal should have argued on your behalf that you had no tickets on your record, no accidents etc. and asked the prosecutor for a reduced charge. It really comes down to the negotiation skills and how well they know the prosecutor / judge.

Delay's by the court are usually in benefit to your case and against your constitutional right to a trial in a timely manner. Many people like to cite s. 11(b) as a Constitutional challenge, but fail to mention that it's fully to the discretion of the judge. There is no hard and fast rule that says that 11 months automatically grants you a stay of proceedings. In fact, most people aren't aware that the 11(b) ruling comes out of the case R v. Askov, however, two years after that ruling the case of R v. Morin there was a delay of 14 months and the SCC rejected the appeal and affirmed the conviction. So take the advice with regards to s. 11(b) with a grain of salt, there is no hard and fast rule.

I would appeal it if you are not satisfied with the result, however, you run the risk of high cost, delay's etc. The court systm is unfortunately inefficient, but don't let others make your decision for you. Ultimately, the decision rests with you. No matter what a lawyer / paralegal / plumber whatever advises, you can always go against that. Last week I took a case to trial in Ann Arbor for a "parking in a handicap space", and prior to that had a trial for retail fraud < $200 ... the defendant was alleged to have taken two candy bars, in the latter, I provided my advice to take the plea to a lesser charge as negotiated with the prosecutor as the evidence was against him, however, he maintained his innocence in the matter and wanted to take it to trial, so I did. Ultimately we lost, though I didn't feel the prosecutor proved her case beyond a reasonable doubt.

I would recommend looking for another legal professional.

[SilentJay]

Thanks for the advice guys. I've decided not to appeal just because it's dragged on for far too long, cost me waay to much money, and I can't keep taking days off work.

I really wished someone had pointed out the key words to me: "your insurance won't go up much, if at all, if you have only had 1 minor infraction." Had I known this, I would've just given up.

The other little nugget of information: Choose your representation carefully. I swear the guy I went with had a few screws missing. Didn't do anything for me (he asked me to "read up" on the charges!!), didn't bother to put up any resistance against prosecution allegations, and was simply all talk.

[leungalv]

The other little nugget of information: Choose your representation carefully. I swear the guy I went with had a few screws missing. Didn't do anything for me (he asked me to "read up" on the charges!!), didn't bother to put up any resistance against prosecution allegations, and was simply all talk.

The arrogant lawyer in me wants to say, "that's why he's a paralegal and not a lawyer" :chuckle :AH

fiiiinnneee there are some decent paralegals out there

[S.F.W.]

The arrogant lawyer in me wants to say, "that's why he's a paralegal and not a lawyer" :chuckle :AH

fiiiinnneee there are some decent paralegals out there

Actually his representation, is someone I have used myself previously with great success . This individual is a lawyer, and not a paralegal. That said , he does seem to be a few cards short if a full deck.