View Full Version : Not hitting targets
SomeGuy
05-02-2012, 08:09 PM
Got my downpipe and fuel pump installed today and after my drive back from toronto I flashed the stage 2 intake + TIH 93 octane v210 map to match. Seems though I'm not even coming close to boost targets. The maps says it should target 19psi but at best I'm seeing a little spike to 17psi and then usually sits around 16.5 psi. Here's a log:
http://SomeForum.net/DataLogs/boosttargets.csv
From what I see everything looks reasonable, fuel pressure is great and staying around 1800psi, less than half a degree of knock through a smidge of the mid range, AFR's look good around 11.3.
Any thoughts?
miako
05-02-2012, 08:21 PM
I had the same issue, just bring the car to fobio, you just need a tune buddy... Fobio basically fixed my running rich and not hitting boost target issues fixed in 1 map.... Fine tuned in 7 maps, shoot fobio a pm!
your car is not even hitting 2.0 load...
even though the stock OTS map targets I believe 2.05 at its max
SomeGuy
05-02-2012, 08:36 PM
your car is not even hitting 2.0 load...
even though the stock OTS map targets I believe 2.05 at its max
Yeah, and in the 3-4k range it's not even like my wastegate is pegged so not a boost leak? It seems very strange?
Fobio
05-02-2012, 10:50 PM
check out the first post of this thread. addressing your issues is how we unlocked the power for miako:
http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?62181-*MSpeed*-2010-MS3-Stg2-K-amp-N-SRI-w-Ultra94
SomeGuy
05-02-2012, 11:06 PM
Fobio - Thanks, I've read that before but doesn't really answer my question as to why. What in the map is causing it to miss boost targets? Why would cobb make it target 19psi if it can never actually do it? Why do some people have no problems hitting targets with OTS maps and others do?
My biggest issue with spending (more) money on a special tune right now is that one isn't enough, I run the 93 octane tune when I'm south, 91 when I'm north...I'll switch maps again when I install a TMIC too or would require a retune. I don't want to make trips back and forth to toronto (I hate the city to be honest) to get help either. I'm not expecting it to be a hand out, but I want to learn!
you don't have to step foot in Toronto for Fobio to tune your car...
Fobio
05-02-2012, 11:22 PM
Let's turn it around for a little bit. This is not about Fobio and MSpeed Tuning...
When I first started, I figured it out myself cuz no one else could do what I wanted to. Now, it's much simpler.
You can ask your questions and take your lumps on MSF. Learn it yourself and experiement with your car. Or you can simply choose from a number of individuals across North America who'd "tune" you...chk them out on MSF.
Either way...do not lament that no one is giving an answer you're looking for, when the answers have always been there for you to seek out. Like I said....check out MSF, if you really want to learn.
I run MSpeed Tuning, and host tuning and ownership seminars...I don't run Google. =)
SomeGuy
05-02-2012, 11:38 PM
I know fobio...just it's always hard to sort through things. Right now I'm just looking at the wastegate duty cycle for one but my logs don't exactly match what the duty cycle thing is?
Then there is the throttle load tables - x gear requested load. In those tables it shows it requesting load which is about what I'm actually seeing in my logs? Is this limiting me? I did find this: http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f426/not-hitting-stage-2-boost-targets-boost-leak-111639/ on MSF that talks about them needing to be 2.5. I'm still trying to figure it all out lol
Actually, out of curiosity, do you have any good links describing what all the different parameters mean?
SomeGuy
05-04-2012, 09:35 AM
http://www.cobbtuning.com/v/vspfiles/files/support/accesstuner/help_guides/AccessTUNER_HelpFile_MAZDASPEED.pdf
Answered my own question, accesstuner doc has all the param descriptions.
SomeGuy
05-04-2012, 05:33 PM
Well, after a TON of reading and finishing off my MAF calibrations and verifying my trims were nice and close...I have started to tweak. Above 2500rpm I bumped 2nd gear throttle requested load up 5% and then 3rd and 4th gear throttle requested load up 10%. Some threads I read said to go straight to 2.3 but I decided to play it safe and just up them a little bit and see how the car responds. Just got back from doing a couple logs and things are looking improved, still not hitting full on 19psi of targeted boost, but now seeing 17.xx sustained and short peaks of 18psi so it's a positive improvement. All the rest of the params are looking very nicely in check still (fuel pressure, AFR, knock, etc) and WGDC is actually down a bit from my first logs. Car is starting to feel faster too :)
Will continue to see where I go with this.
your load targets should be within 0.05 of what your car is actually hitting. Setting it 2.3 won't achieve anything.
SomeGuy
05-04-2012, 07:19 PM
your load targets should be within 0.05 of what your car is actually hitting. Setting it 2.3 won't achieve anything.
I've read that bit somewhere...but isn't that when you are hitting boost targets already? From what I see in my logs and what I've read, if I'm hitting load limits first the throttle will actually close a bit and it will only use as much boost as necessary to maintain the load?
I think bluestreak ran into this on his car, so maybe he can elaborate?
come to Nator North tomorrow
and don't tell me it's far. I've done downtown Kitchener to downtown TO in 45 mins.
SomeGuy
05-04-2012, 07:53 PM
come to Nator North tomorrow
and don't tell me it's far. I've done downtown Kitchener to downtown TO in 45 mins.
We're doing stuff at NATOR kw tomorrow, come our way instead lol
I'm really trying to get a grasp on this tuning stuff as I'm pretty sure I can figure it out. I do need to check for boost leaks too, but given the little bump to those load tables and gaining ~1.5 psi I think I'm on the right track. I think I'll be able to get 18psi with another tiny bump to them and at this point my logs look good.
And no way it's 45 min to downtown to downtown unless the roads are empty and you're doing not so legal speeds...that said, I will make it one of these days.
SomeGuy
05-05-2012, 12:10 AM
your load targets should be within 0.05 of what your car is actually hitting. Setting it 2.3 won't achieve anything.
Okay, so I've done more reading about this and seems the 2.3 setting is an old idea and the +0.05 actual logged calculated load is the ideal. The thing is though, I'm still not hitting my boost targets...so won't my logged calculated load be lower and this will just drag me down further? I guess in short, how do you go about getting everything else optimized (ie achieving boost targets) so that I can get good logged calculated loads for the TRL tables?
SomeGuy
05-05-2012, 12:19 AM
Let's turn it around for a little bit. This is not about Fobio and MSpeed Tuning...
When I first started, I figured it out myself cuz no one else could do what I wanted to. Now, it's much simpler.
You can ask your questions and take your lumps on MSF. Learn it yourself and experiement with your car. Or you can simply choose from a number of individuals across North America who'd "tune" you...chk them out on MSF.
Either way...do not lament that no one is giving an answer you're looking for, when the answers have always been there for you to seek out. Like I said....check out MSF, if you really want to learn.
I run MSpeed Tuning, and host tuning and ownership seminars...I don't run Google. =)
Fobio - I've done hours upon hours of reading in the last few days, have learned a lot and am starting to understand how all these tables relate and what they do....but I'm also starting to find conflicting information out there about what to do? It seems some people are doing load based and some are doing boost based tuning, but even boost based has some load elements to it. These TRL tables seem to play some factor but it's not really clear on what they do, some people set them high 2.3-2.5 or as loki said to +0.05 of logged calculated load (how the hell do you get a good value in the first place, if the logged load is being affected by whatever values are in the load tables to begin with?).
*sigh* some high level steps/understanding about what is right would go a long way right now.
The link to miako's thing mentions dialing in boost, load and fuel targets but very little detail on how?
BTW, here's my log following the changes I made to the TRL tables (increasing them):
http://someforum.net/datalogs/TRLchanges.csv
Fobio
05-05-2012, 12:27 AM
the art and science of tuning these things. =)
how do you figure I earn my money?
I suppose this is where you start talking with the guys and seeing how they are going about it and what techniques they use. You need to start asking your questions on MSF...
SomeGuy
05-05-2012, 12:35 AM
Yeah, guess it's a bit of a conflict of interest to you giving out your hard earned knowledge for free :) I would really love to learn how to do it myself so I can really understand what is going on in the car and make changes as I continue to mod the car. Paying someone is an option, but I don't learn then :(
I've been trying to avoid posting on MSF because I am more comfortable here and have a good idea who to listen to lol going to be a pain in the ass for a while on MSF while I find my way around.
Fobio
05-05-2012, 12:37 AM
I've been trying to avoid posting on MSF because I am more comfortable here and have a good idea who to listen to lol going to be a pain in the ass for a while on MSF while I find my way around.
we've been thru this before...
be a man...do the right thing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Klw71WzQm50
Yeah, guess it's a bit of a conflict of interest to you giving out your hard earned knowledge for free :) I would really love to learn how to do it myself so I can really understand what is going on in the car and make changes as I continue to mod the car. Paying someone is an option, but I don't learn then :(
I've been trying to avoid posting on MSF because I am more comfortable here and have a good idea who to listen to lol going to be a pain in the ass for a while on MSF while I find my way around.
as Fobio has said before, all the information is actually here. It might be scattered through various threads, but it is there and you have to go searching through it all.
If you're determined to learn, then you should have no problem sifting through it, and experimenting with your car.
SomeGuy
05-05-2012, 12:54 AM
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f426/stage-2-tuning-help-112823/
Well...here goes :)
SomeGuy
06-18-2012, 07:22 PM
Finally got my forge bpv in, installed the cpe tmic, tweaked the tune a bit more and went for a couple run. AFR's are a little bouncy, need to let the LTFTs settle in and do another MAF calibration since I added the TMIC but they're still well within acceptable range. Also am getting a bit of knock although not surprising since I'm on the stock plugs for now and it's bloody hot out, still under 1 degree though so not too worried and will order a set of denso's soon. Finally WGDC is high at the end of the run but I think there's more in the tune I can tweak to bring this down as the OTS maps actually request 94% WGDC at 5500rpm and 112% at 6000rpm (which is ridic?).
Log for datalog7 in the graph:
http://someforum.net/datalogs/20120618.csv
http://someforum.net/DataLogs/virtualdynoplot.jpg
SomeGuy
06-01-2013, 12:01 AM
LoL I have to laugh at myself, I knew nothing back when I started this thread.
To those who come across this, it was essentially WGDC (wastegate duty cycle) table was stupidly low and it was using all the load error correction it could have. Adding more in the TRL tables, I was just letting it use even more LEC. When I swapped maps after putting on the TMIC the WGDC for that map is much more significant. The trick after that is to dial it in so you hit your boost targets without knocking and without having to use much LEC (if you're doing a hybrid tune).
Following that the OTS maps are still quite rich (low 11's, high 10's) so lean it out a bit more...although it doesn't seem to gain much power from this, the car does run better and shoots less black smoke out the back. Pull a bit of timing (0.5-1.0 degrees) to deal with knock where it's knocking if you have a little bit and then add in timing where you can to make more power. Also lots of tweaks to other tables such as DBW tables to fix issues with throttle closing WOT and making VD plots sucky, changes to breakpoints for LTFT to get better resolution, changes to delays for leaving closed loop, changes to knock decay to keep it from pulling timing/adding fuel when the knock is gone anyway, it goes on and on.
Tuning is fun, I have a ways to go but it's way better than it was :) I'm up probably 5-10% in power already.
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