My Basement Reno Adventure

[SomeGuy]

So this summer I'm working on finishing my basement...figured I'd keep a little thread/blog of it here.

So here's what I'm started from:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/6060_521394875223_189200657_31278310_3392089_n.jpg

As you can see, the previous owners had started on it but they had metal studing improperly installed, no gasket, no gromits on the wiring, very weak.

Here's a rough plan of what I want when it's finished, mind you it's just a paint drawing I did in a few minutes to capture my ideas lol

http://someforum.net/2012/layout.png

So first thing first, get the crap ripped out so I can start fresh and do it right.

Starting to tear stuff up:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/578001_585359165273_189200657_32307595_1046600432_ n.jpg

The inside and subfloor up:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/538777_585386355783_189200657_32307919_467879526_n .jpg

Made a big mess tearing the outside wall out today:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/546313_586015504963_189200657_32311975_2130373183_ n.jpg

But now it's nice and clean:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/579621_586034811273_189200657_32312151_1744268897_ n.jpg

I have a bit more to take apart on the other side but going to start on the subfloor on the one side this weekend. Using all Dricore on the floor (which the previous owners had down and I managed to salvage almost all of it) so should make it nice and warm on the feet :)

[bluemazda3]

almost looks like my basement... the final drawing! good luck on the reno!

[Default User]

Awesome!

I love the fact that you're tearing it down and starting from scratch.

[Jackal]

Put a 60" TV and change the sectionals to bars and you have a Man Cave!

[SomeGuy]

Put a 60" TV and change the sectionals to bars and you have a Man Cave!

Planning on doing a 50+ inch tv will measure out seating distance and optimal screen size when the time comes.

I originally wanted to do a bar in the basement but want it as more livable space so sectional/tv made sense for day to day and I don't have room to do both. The kitchenette is a compromise to give me a place to snag a beer or snacks :)

[cwp_sedan]

Definitely consider some soundproofing. It makes a huge difference in the end.

[stevenma188]

Does it say "FIRE" beside the "TV and Speakers" ??

[SomeGuy]

Does it say "FIRE" beside the "TV and Speakers" ??

Yup, a pair of these:
http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Fireplaces/Fireplaces_gas/Torch.html

cwp - any recommendations? I was going to at least do sound absorbing insulation in the ceiling and the wall by the bathroom/utility room and main room.

[oxide]

nice, i did a bit of things over the winter with the Eco Program MB Hydro offered, hopefully i can finish it this winter.

[PR3Y11]

was that dricore you tore out?

[SomeGuy]

was that dricore you tore out?

Read the last blurb in my first post ;)

[The Wolf]

Fun. Basement renos are the best

[m_bisson]

I'm in the middle of this.... Get this: my basement came with WINDOWS INSIDE.... separate rooms with windows.... and there was a lock on the door... on the side you would lock if you were keeping people IN....

Anywho.... my plans are to soundproof it for my drumset :D

[Default User]

I'm in the middle of this.... Get this: my basement came with WINDOWS INSIDE.... separate rooms with windows.... and there was a lock on the door... on the side you would lock if you were keeping people IN....

Anywho.... my plans are to soundproof it for my drumset :D

Built in dungeons
creeeeeeepy!!!

[SomeGuy]

Got a whole lot of the subfloor back down today:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/545633_586106223163_189200657_32313316_792076876_n .jpg

[p-o-g-i]

This thread is an awesome idea for all the home owners out there.
This is one project I was thinking of taking on as it's completely open concept and bare. I just don't know emough about home renos to take it on myself so I was planning on hiring a contractor.

This project wouldn't take place for another year anyways, so I'm not in a rush.

[SomeGuy]

pogi - I haven't done much of this before but have a general idea of how things work and google/research is filling in the rest. I will probably still hire out a few of the tasks such as plumbing (hate the idea of leaky plumbing) and the taping/mudding/sanding of the drywall (way too messy and a PITA). In any case, you should try to DIY...just be brave :)

[Booter22]

This thread is an awesome idea for all the home owners out there.
This is one project I was thinking of taking on as it's completely open concept and bare. I just don't know emough about home renos to take it on myself so I was planning on hiring a contractor.

This project wouldn't take place for another year anyways, so I'm not in a rush.

could always talk to lizz, her bro is a contractor and built pretty much the whole basement apartment in which we have at the house. 1800 sq feet of awesomeness, bed room, bathroom, family room, fire place. pot lights, hard wood. its beautiful.

[rajin929]

awesome start! Will surely stay tuned for the updates!

We're in the same boat, where the previous owner tried to start some work....plan is to rip everything out and start from scratch like yourself. Just tied up getting the rest of the house in order - the basement will be on the back burner for a few more years

right now for us it's house mods > car mods lol

[m_bisson]

talk to me!! I'm a painter. I know lots from being around construction :)

[PR3Y11]

If u wanna try a neat trick. Cut and put registers into the dricore and through your flooring then hook it up through your central vac assuming u have cv. Should keep it floor 100% dry all the time with regular vacuuming ;)

[Rob23]

might wanna hire an electrician too, unless you can get that wiring to exact code. plus if you got caught you'd be charged im pretty sure.

[m_bisson]

might wanna hire an electrician too, unless you can get that wiring to exact code. plus if you got caught you'd be charged im pretty sure.

You can always just have a home inspector come in after and tell you if there are any issues.

[SomeGuy]

You can always just have a home inspector come in after and tell you if there are any issues.

A home inspector doesn't have any authority to pass it though. That said I'm not messing with hvac or structure and there's already rough in for plumbing and doing all new electrical lines...so not so bad.


might wanna hire an electrician too, unless you can get that wiring to exact code. plus if you got caught you'd be charged im pretty sure.

My dad will be helping me with the electrical, he knows how to do it properly. I'm more confident with his work than some stuff I've seen licensed electricians do.

[breakfasteatre]

having that fiberglass insulation against the concrete with a vapor barrier over it as well was asking for serious mold problems

as well, home owners doing electrical, bad idea. Im not saying hire a company out but get an electrician to do it on the side for you. Would take less than a day

[SomeGuy]

having that fiberglass insulation against the concrete with a vapor barrier over it as well was asking for serious mold problems

as well, home owners doing electrical, bad idea. Im not saying hire a company out but get an electrician to do it on the side for you. Would take less than a day

I'm planning on doing closed cell spray foam...the insulation that was there was done by the previous owner or builder. Surprisingly though when I took it all out there was no signs of moisture at all behind the insulation and the house is 10 years old now...so not bad.

Again, my dad will be helping me and is completely capable. I know the horror stories about electrical out there but believe me it will be done 100% correctly.

[Default User]

I believe 85% of all home renos could be a DIY job. If you **** up - THEN hire a contractor.

[m_bisson]

having that fiberglass insulation against the concrete with a vapor barrier over it as well was asking for serious mold problems



That's how it's supposed to be done.....

[The Wolf]

That's how it's supposed to be done.....

+1, sort of. Fiberglass insulation shouldn't touch the concrete. As long as there's a break between the studs/insulation (tar paper, or any other kind or moisture barrier), then it's fine.

[SirWanker]

Since you are sort-of starting from scratch, may I suggest that you document with plenty of pictures of where all the major duct work/electrical/plumbing items are located, especially if you intend to refinish the ceiling with dry-wall. Of course inspect all of the items before hand and correct as needed. Definite plus on the sound-proofing.

[SomeGuy]

Since you are sort-of starting from scratch, may I suggest that you document with plenty of pictures of where all the major duct work/electrical/plumbing items are located, especially if you intend to refinish the ceiling with dry-wall. Of course inspect all of the items before hand and correct as needed. Definite plus on the sound-proofing.

I will definitely be taking pictures as I go, not just for documentation but to share here lol

As it stands I'm probably going suspended ceiling simply because I can get at everything if I ever need to and there's a couple things in the ceiling that need to be accessible (shutoff for a hose spigot for instance). The utility room will be left rough as well.

[SirWanker]

I will definitely be taking pictures as I go, not just for documentation but to share here lol

As it stands I'm probably going suspended ceiling simply because I can get at everything if I ever need to and there's a couple things in the ceiling that need to be accessible (shutoff for a hose spigot for instance). The utility room will be left rough as well.

Cool! May I recommend installing access panels where the main sewage stacks are located. It will pay-off in the long run.

[SomeGuy]

Cool! May I recommend installing access panels where the main sewage stacks are located. It will pay-off in the long run.

Those would be in the utility room :)

[m_bisson]

+1, sort of. Fiberglass insulation shouldn't touch the concrete. As long as there's a break between the studs/insulation (tar paper, or any other kind or moisture barrier), then it's fine.

I've used mold proof paint in the past as well. It's definitely more effective than tar paper, as long as the walls are washed properly first.

[cwp_sedan]

cwp - any recommendations? I was going to at least do sound absorbing insulation in the ceiling and the wall by the bathroom/utility room and main room.

That's what I would recommend also. If you are going to spend a lot of time down there and have people upstairs it can get loud/noisy without something for sound. I think it wn't be too bad since you don't have a bedroom down there. If you did I would suggest doing a little more in the ceiling there.

All I would suggest is some sound absorbing insulation like you already mentioned in the areas you already have thought of. "Safe 'n Sound" labeled stuff is good.

http://www.roxul.com/residential/create+a+quiet+home+with+safe’n’sound

If you start going with more expensive stuff it can get quite expensive.

[SomeGuy]

That's what I would recommend also. If you are going to spend a lot of time down there and have people upstairs it can get loud/noisy without something for sound. I think it wn't be too bad since you don't have a bedroom down there. If you did I would suggest doing a little more in the ceiling there.

All I would suggest is some sound absorbing insulation like you already mentioned in the areas you already have thought of. "Safe 'n Sound" labeled stuff is good.

http://www.roxul.com/residential/create+a+quiet+home+with+safe’n’sound

If you start going with more expensive stuff it can get quite expensive.

Cool, that will be plenty. I actually live by myself and don't have any plans at the moment for that to change...so noise upstairs will not be an issue. With suspended ceiling though I can always go back and add additional insulation but regardless for the time being I will do safe n' sound.

[cwp_sedan]

Cool, that will be plenty. I actually live by myself and don't have any plans at the moment for that to change...so noise upstairs will not be an issue. With suspended ceiling though I can always go back and add additional insulation but regardless for the time being I will do safe n' sound.

Exactly. Ideally drywall ceilings are best for sound absorption but not necessarily the best for everyones application or easy of accessibility. It will definitely make it easy to go make later if you have to.

[fini]

If you are using a mineral tile drop ceiling, you might as well forgo the Roxul insulation. The net increase in noise isolation and absorption performance will be minimal and not worth the cost of product and time it takes to install. If you are not serious about noise control in the entire space, that's another reason to forgo the insulation because I can guarantee that you will have noise leaks everywhere else.

If you want to do it right, like a basement apartment or at least an upgraded version of a standard basement (standard - read "shitty") apartment, then I would suggest a drywall ceiling with resilient fasteners with the Roxul insulation at the ceiling. You'd be looking for impact and sound transmission isolation characteristics.

Edit: I also know a plumber, electrician and carpenter if you need help with those trades.

[The Wolf]

If you are using a mineral tile drop ceiling, you might as well forgo the Roxul insulation. The net increase in noise isolation and absorption performance will be minimal and not worth the cost of product and time it takes to install. If you are not serious about noise control in the entire space, that's another reason to forgo the insulation because I can guarantee that you will have noise leaks everywhere else.

If you want to do it right, like a basement apartment or at least an upgraded version of a standard basement (standard - read "shitty") apartment, then I would suggest a drywall ceiling with resilient fasteners with the Roxul insulation at the ceiling. You'd be looking for impact and sound transmission isolation characteristics.

Edit: I also know a plumber, electrician and carpenter if you need help with those trades.

+1. I'm a carpenter, if you have any q's, bbm me.

[m_bisson]

Question regarding soundproofing!!

As I'll be putting a drumset in part of the basement, I'll need access to the room. I don't want to build the wall up from the inside and seal myself in forever.

Glass sliding door? Solid core wood?

I've used a ridiculously heavy solid core door in the past, but had a hell of a time sealing it all the way around. Huge difference in how much noise escaped when even a small gap existed between the door and the frame. Would a sliding glass door (ie. patio door) work better?

[The Wolf]

Wood will work better than glass. In the home studios I've recorded in, they used double solid wood doors that close with minimal air space in between.

[peterm15]

If you go glass you'd be best with triple sealed. Probably cheaper to get wood doors anyhow.

Triple sealed glass ( depending on size) runs around $25-$35/sqft.

The seal with a patio door wouldn't be great either. You would be much better with wood door and 2 draft stops ( foam for the door to close onto and spring loaded on the exterior part of the frame.

[xxSlidewaysxx]

Don't forget to wire your surround sound speakers too, up in the ceiling is nice. Home Depot has some modular plates for the nice clean look. Wire it for 7.1, you'll thank yourself later.

[SomeGuy]

Don't forget to wire your surround sound speakers too, up in the ceiling is nice. Home Depot has some modular plates for the nice clean look. Wire it for 7.1, you'll thank yourself later.

Since I'm doing drop ceiling I'm planning to at very least run conduit up from boxes in a variety of places around the room. That way I'm not stuck with any one type of wiring and can easily run new stuff in the future.

[rajin929]

I'm planning on doing closed cell spray foam...the insulation that was there was done by the previous owner or builder. Surprisingly though when I took it all out there was no signs of moisture at all behind the insulation and the house is 10 years old now...so not bad.


good to hear no moisture problems.

definately compare the cost of the spray foam vs. 2" thick styrofoam insulation panels.

depending on the area, spray foam can get quite costly and depending on the person applying it it could be uneven or lumpy or some areas could be missed altogether.

with the 2" foam, you have a consistant and uniform layer of insulation between the foundation walls and your 2x4 framing. You can even use the foam board and cut rectangles to fill the rim joists and use a can of spray foam to fill in.

Just a cost effective alternation to the spray foam and probably just as good. You can even use the leftover batt insulation you ripped off the walls to fill the newly framed walls (so you have Concreate => 2 inch foam board => wall frame with pink insulation)

[SomeGuy]

good to hear no moisture problems.

definately compare the cost of the spray foam vs. 2" thick styrofoam insulation panels.

depending on the area, spray foam can get quite costly and depending on the person applying it it could be uneven or lumpy or some areas could be missed altogether.

with the 2" foam, you have a consistant and uniform layer of insulation between the foundation walls and your 2x4 framing. You can even use the foam board and cut rectangles to fill the rim joists and use a can of spray foam to fill in.

Just a cost effective alternation to the spray foam and probably just as good. You can even use the leftover batt insulation you ripped off the walls to fill the newly framed walls (so you have Concreate => 2 inch foam board => wall frame with pink insulation)

Good things to consider. The thing I like about closed cell spray foam is the lack of need for vapour barrier. With rigid insulation you still need it right? Plus properly installed it should cover everything very evenly even up into the joist end plate header things. The other thing is I've heard that you are more likely to have moisture problems with foam board since there is still an air gap between it and the concrete?

[fini]

Question regarding soundproofing!!

As I'll be putting a drumset in part of the basement, I'll need access to the room. I don't want to build the wall up from the inside and seal myself in forever.

Glass sliding door? Solid core wood?

I've used a ridiculously heavy solid core door in the past, but had a hell of a time sealing it all the way around. Huge difference in how much noise escaped when even a small gap existed between the door and the frame. Would a sliding glass door (ie. patio door) work better?


Wood will work better than glass. In the home studios I've recorded in, they used double solid wood doors that close with minimal air space in between.

Glass sliding door if you want it to look fancy, but the acoustic properties will be inferior to a solid core wood door. The main reason is because typical glass does not have the same surface density. It's aaaaaaaall about the surface density my friend! To get a glass door near the performance of a regular solid core wood door, would cost you a lot. As Sawatsky said, a double door with proper seals is recommended for a high level of noise isolation.

You should seriously consider a floating floor and isolated ceiling system too. It's not just the airborne noise that you should be worried about. It's the structure borne as well.

Think of it like this. If air or light can escape, noise can escape. You've got to take care to seal all the leaks or it instantly degrades the overall assembly by a large factor.


Don't forget to wire your surround sound speakers too, up in the ceiling is nice. Home Depot has some modular plates for the nice clean look. Wire it for 7.1, you'll thank yourself later.

I would not recommend this at all. Although it might look nice, you are turning your entire ceiling into a giant speaker.

--------------------------------

So you guys know I'm not talking out of my ass, I am actually an Acoustic Engineer and do this stuff for a living.

[SomeGuy]

Well, time to get framing :)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/576842_587289716433_189200657_32324901_1651082594_ n.jpg

[SomeGuy]

A bit higher resolution shot and a smidge more progress lol

http://someforum.net/2012/Framing1.JPG

[The Wolf]

8 studs in ~2 hrs?

[SomeGuy]

8 studs in ~2 hrs?

Hahah there was some lunch in there and some time spent figuring some stuff out...I'm doing this 100% by myself, so no extra hands to cut or hold or anything, plus I don't do this for a living and I've never really done framing before.

Besides, no rush...I want it to be done right and square and level and all that good stuff. So screw you lol

[m_bisson]

Someguy.... Did you assemble the wall on the floor then just lift it into place? It looks to me like you attached it to the wall one piece at a time....

Do it on the floor, then raise it up. Looks like you're set on using screws as well... You should be nailing through the top/bottom of the wall into the stud. Nails have a much higher shearing strength than screws.

[The Wolf]

Someguy.... Did you assemble the wall on the floor then just lift it into place? It looks to me like you attached it to the wall one piece at a time....

Do it on the floor, then raise it up. Looks like you're set on using screws as well... You should be nailing through the top/bottom of the wall into the stud. Nails have a much higher shearing strength than screws.

Trouble you run into there is that when you raise the wall up, it doesn't fit. You have to make the entire wall like 1/2" shorter than the height of the room in order to stand it up, just because of the geometry of the shape of a wall.

[m_bisson]

Trouble you run into there is that when you raise the wall up, it doesn't fit. You have to make the entire wall like 1/2" shorter than the height of the room in order to stand it up, just because of the geometry of the shape of a wall.

He has no ceiling.... you stand it up between the joists then just pivot it into place. I've never gotten "stuck" lol. Maybe you've had uneven floors/ceilings?

[SomeGuy]

It's worth it to build in place for a better/stronger wall as everything can be made to fit and squared up better. Cutting to fit has varied by 1/2" along the run of the back wall, if I had built on the floor and stood it up I'd either be too tight or I'd have a gap between my top plate and the floor joists. The only real argument for standing it up is its less time consuming. As for nails vs. screws, nails might have more shear strength but screws hold shit together better. Go attach two boards together, one with 4 ardox nails, one with 4 screws...then try to seperate them and let me know what you'd rather use.

[Hoodzy]

Do you plan on separating your 2X4's with a crow bar? or live in an earthquake env? Screws are overkill and more expensive. Technically they are better but not needed for this type of construction.

[m_bisson]

It's worth it to build in place for a better/stronger wall as everything can be made to fit and squared up better. Cutting to fit has varied by 1/2" along the run of the back wall, if I had built on the floor and stood it up I'd either be too tight or I'd have a gap between my top plate and the floor joists. The only real argument for standing it up is its less time consuming. As for nails vs. screws, nails might have more shear strength but screws hold shit together better. Go attach two boards together, one with 4 ardox nails, one with 4 screws...then try to seperate them and let me know what you'd rather use.

Maybe you don't understand when and how to use nails ;) In the case of building walls, the screw will break before the nail even starts to bend.

You are right about building it in place though. If things are real uneven then you do get a better fit that way.

The only other thing I can see as being incorrect is building the wall on top of the sub floor. If you ever have a flood or need to remove it for some reason, you basically have to cut it out along the bottom of the wall....
Are you anchoring the wall to the concrete floor or just the sub floor? As long as none of it is load-bearing then it will be okay like this...but for future reference :p

[SomeGuy]

Maybe you don't understand when and how to use nails ;) In the case of building walls, the screw will break before the nail even starts to bend.

You are right about building it in place though. If things are real uneven then you do get a better fit that way.

The only other thing I can see as being incorrect is building the wall on top of the sub floor. If you ever have a flood or need to remove it for some reason, you basically have to cut it out along the bottom of the wall....
Are you anchoring the wall to the concrete floor or just the sub floor? As long as none of it is load-bearing then it will be okay like this...but for future reference :p

The subfloor is dricore and they recommend framing on top of it in this situation, so just following directions. They say to anchor the bottom plate to the subfloor with 2" wood screws every couple feet and then every 6-8 feet or so to do tapcon down through into concrete, so that's what I'm doing. Dricore has about a 1/4" airspace underneith so if I do end up with water in the basement it hopefully won't come up high enough to cause issues but if it does I'd have to gut it out just the same as if I framed with gasket onto the concrete. And none of this is load bearing, all of the joists are supported by the foundation.

Anyway, I'm done for today...
http://someforum.net/2012/Framing2.JPG

[The Wolf]

He has no ceiling.... you stand it up between the joists then just pivot it into place. I've never gotten "stuck" lol. Maybe you've had uneven floors/ceilings?

Lol! Yep, no ceilings. Brain fart.

[m_bisson]

hmm... how much $ was the dricore? I can't decide what to do for my floor :(

And since you're using treated wood, you don't have to replace any of it if you flood. Just make sure it dries out real well with a dehumidifier. Not sure about the dricore though.

[SomeGuy]

hmm... how much $ was the dricore? I can't decide what to do for my floor :(

Free to me...the previous owners of my house had put it down in the basement and had a bunch left over that they left behind too :) so I haven't had to buy any yet. I think it's around $7.00 per 2x2' piece.

[fourtrack78]

Blue wood where did you get it from? Did you end up sorting through it to find good pieces or did you just get it delivered without sorting through? Though I would ask as I plan on starting this project as well.

[PR3Y11]

i see you paid a visit to lowes ;)
which one do you go to?

[SomeGuy]

Blue wood where did you get it from? Did you end up sorting through it to find good pieces or did you just get it delivered without sorting through? Though I would ask as I plan on starting this project as well.

Lowes in Waterloo. A buddy with a truck came with me and we picked through all 160 2x4's...that said, it was all pretty good and once we threw aside the crap on top that other people had picked through, the remaining stuff was almost perfect. $2.89/board ends up being 40-50 cents more per 2x4 but in the grand scheme of things, not a huge extra expense.

[rajin929]

A buddy with a truck came with me and we picked through all 160 2x4's...

friend with truck > all other people.
lol

making great progress man, keep up the good work!