Catholic school funding being challenged

[Default User]

I've been getting a lot of school kids asking for "fundraiser" donations or selling chocolates, apples, etc.
Recently, a local elementary school cancelled their annual Christmas concert, because it "wasn't in the budget"

[b]Now this is a highly debatable subject as it deals with both religion AND politics, so if you cant take criticism or if youre sensitive to your beliefs - please stop reading now[b]

http://www.cp24.com/news/catholic-school-funding-challenge-heard-in-court-1.998958



The Canadian Press
Published Wednesday, Oct. 17, 2012 5:19AM EDT
Last Updated Wednesday, Oct. 17, 2012 3:43PM EDT

TORONTO -- Funding Catholic schools and not those of other faiths equates giving them a privilege others don't enjoy, Ontario government lawyers agreed Wednesday, but said it's still a constitutionally protected right.

A Toronto woman is asking Ontario's Superior Court to order the government to stop funding Catholic schools because as a taxpayer who doesn't share the church's beliefs, she says it infringes her freedom of religion. But as the funding was guaranteed in 1867 in the constitution, it is not subject to charter challenges, court heard. Judge David Corbett, questioning the government lawyers, noted that section of the constitution was put in place at the time of Confederation to protect the rights of the Catholic minority, when the Protestant majority had the benefit of a Protestant school system.
Today the school system is secular and yet Catholic schools remain publicly funded, turning a law that was once intended to protect minority rights into one that confers a privilege, Corbett said. Josh Hunter, a lawyer with the Ministry of the Attorney General, agreed. Ontario, he said, could create other denominational school rights, as other provinces have.

"We had an election on that a few years ago," he said. In 2007, then-Progressive Conservative leader John Tory lost a provincial election after his proposal to extend funding to schools of other faiths became a controversial part of his campaign. Reva Landau, the woman in this case, said Tory's proposal first gave her the idea to launch her challenge. She believes no religious school should be publicly funded, but said she thought at least Tory's idea was fairer than the current system.

"Someone who's Buddhist or Muslim or Jewish or atheist who wants to send a child to a school that promotes their particular philosophy has to pay for it fully out of their own pocket," Landau said outside court Wednesday. "Only Roman Catholics get the chance to send their children to a school that promotes their philosophy without having to pay any extra out of their pocket. So if we live in a multicultural society does that seem fair? Does that seem just?" The Roman Catholic school system gets about one-third of Ontario's $24-billion education budget, but only 23 per cent of electors direct their education taxes to separate schools.

The province asked the court to dismiss Landau's challenge because the case has already been decided, as the Supreme Court of Canada has heard four similar cases. The government suggested Landau isn't raising any new issues that would lead the Supreme Court to reconsider their decisions. It should also be dismissed because Landau doesn't have standing, Hunter said. For a citizen to challenge a law there must be a link between them and the law. "Otherwise any taxpayer could challenge any law they didn't like," he said. "You clearly have to have that direct link and paying taxes isn't enough. "The Canadian Civil Liberties Association is intervening in the challenge and is supporting Landau.

Landau is asking the Ontario Superior Court of Justice to order that the government stop funding Catholic high schools and only fund Catholic elementary schools to the extent they were funded in 1867 at the time of Confederation. That would amount to being funded with "only property taxes from Catholics who declare themselves to be separate school supporters and who live within three miles of a separate school, and property taxes from wholly Catholic owned businesses," Landau wrote in her challenge.

[pwdunmore]

I am not going to say much because I don't want to throw rocks at the glass house... but Catholic schools should be made public. There is no place for religion in school other then history class. :gone

[-RJ3-]

No comment.

I'm just increasing my post count. Trying to lighten the tension this may cause

[London3]

The fact that we have 2 distinct school boards to begin with is one of the biggest flaws in our education system IMO. Inconceivable amounts of money wasted annually when it really shouldn't.

[London3]

Also trying to tiptoe here and not offend :P

[boyracer]

I am not going to say much because I don't want to throw rocks at the glass house... but Catholic schools should be made public. There is no place for religion in school other then history class. :gone

Wait, what? But it's a Catholic school. lol

[-RJ3-]

Here's my thoughts. To avoid a religious war. Against media. What should happen is to be fair all religions should be treated the same

If you remember back in school why we do fundraising?

To show and present sharing and good moral values

Thanks to these people who pay little children to act like they are raising money for a charity and then give all the money to the person who hired them is immoral

I maybe completely off topic but I experience this several times a day. I always say no thanks and imagine who Id be funding?

[2012speed3]

I am not going to say much because I don't want to throw rocks at the glass house... but Catholic schools should be made public. There is no place for religion in school other then history class. :gone

They are public, you don't have to be catholic anymore!

[peterm15]

They are public, you don't have to be catholic anymore!

+1. Even religion class has an alternate, where you learn about all religions.

BUT minus this, if catholic schools were run like they used to be ( where you had to be of catholic faith)

They should either fund them all or fund none. Funding for catholic schools ( in nfld at least ) are funded off the taxes by the parents who's children go to catholic schools. It's a form you have to sign to get your taxes transferred.

IMO the best option would be to make religious schools religious schools. Rather then have a specific religion involved why not allow all religions into the school with their own faith clubs. Keep public schools without religion. That way we wouldn't get problems like that school who banned the catholic club but allowed mosque in the cafe during lunch.

On the same kind of topic. Anyone else remember saying the pledge to the queen in school. I do. They don't do that anymore either. Lol.

[zzz3]

catholic school was the best. u menz just jelly u didnt have girls in skirts in your classes.

[bubba1983]

Subscribed bein gone thru the catholic system in 2 provinces....should be a good read...question, do they still play o canada and say the morning prayer now at homeroom announcements? Or wbatever they call homeroom now...

[07carbon3]

catholic school was the best. u menz just jelly u didnt have girls in skirts in your classes.

:)this lol

[pwdunmore]

catholic school was the best. u menz just jelly u didnt have girls in skirts in your classes.

Lmao... you have your point :P

I agree with all you other guys also with the fact that the Catholic school system has changed a lot and they accommodate for many peoples different beliefs. My faith lies with humanity and not the afterlife though lol... I wish the world was a better place.

[peterm15]

Subscribed bein gone thru the catholic system in 2 provinces....should be a good read...question, do they still play o canada and say the morning prayer now at homeroom announcements? Or wbatever they call homeroom now...

Other then one school in the GTA. ( who was flamed alot due to it) They all play the anthem as for prayer, it's moment of silence in public school.

I went through public school all my life. And like I said I remember saying the pledge AND prayer time. I'm truly not that old either.

[The Wolf]

My personal beliefs aside, it simply is not fair for the government to fund Catholic schools.
In reality, I think the Catholic school system fails to do what it aims to do anyway. When I was young, everyone knew the worst kids and sluttiest girls were from the Catholic schools

[Booter22]

catholic school was the best. u menz just jelly u didnt have girls in skirts in your classes.

good thing then they were not far from my high school :P but still if you go to a catholic school and are not catholic.. why dont you go to public school.. apart from the skirts. either fund schools of all faiths or fund none. i could use the tax cut.:bang like thats going to happen. but fair is fair. all or none, and if they keep it then it should be of the tax payers who kids go to the schools.


My personal beliefs aside, it simply is not fair for the government to fund Catholic schools.
In reality, I think the Catholic school system fails to do what it aims to do anyway. When I was young, everyone knew the worst kids and sluttiest girls were from the Catholic schools

couldnt be more true.

[Default User]

In reality, I think the Catholic school system fails to do what it aims to do anyway. When I was young, everyone knew the worst kids and sluttiest girls were from the Catholic schools

It's a simple case of rebellion. Tell a kid what NOT to do....

But vice versa - the only place to get weed was from the public school kids. LOL

[The Wolf]

Or heroin in the case of my high school :bang

[Default User]

Let me add some first hand experience

My daighter in the 1st grade was required to purchase (what used to be) standard school supplies, that is to be shared within the entire class.
From pencils, erasers and crayons, to facial tissue and wet wipes. EACH kid had to bring in the items on the list - purchased out of pocket. Further to that, there have already been 2 fund raising campaigns, and an $8/child, school-wide fee, for a "guest Scientist-in-class" day lesson.


This begs the question - where does this money go to? There is no playground on school property. No outdoor basketball court. There are no extra-curricular activities for the children to participate in.

[peterm15]

Or heroin in the case of my high school :bang

Did you go to Huron heights. Or heroin heights lol.

Extacy was my public school. And yes all the catholic and private school kids came to grab. But they did always look for a scrap. Lol.

[peterm15]

Let me add some first hand experience

My daighter in the 1st grade was required to purchase (what used to be) standard school supplies, that is to be shared within the entire class.
From pencils, erasers and crayons, to facial tissue and wet wipes. EACH kid had to bring in the items on the list - purchased out of pocket. Further to that, there have already been 2 fund raising campaigns, and an $8/child, school-wide fee, for a "guest Scientist-in-class" day lesson.


This begs the question - where does this money go to? There is no playground on school property. No outdoor basketball court. There are no extra-curricular activities for the children to participate in.

That is a good question. A lot of schools are adopting this. My niece had to do the same thing with school supplies.

Where is the money going. Hmmmm. Maybe the over paid union reps. ( but that's a different debate)

[-ToM-]

i went to a catholic school, and i agree it was over funded. In grade 11, we got a grant from the government to get a new 5 million dollar turf field with a track around it, and all that. The public school down the street got shit all, not even new textbooks. And for those that wonder, yes we did o canada, then morning prayer after, everyday. With a mass like every month.

[Default User]

.... But they did always look for a scrap. Lol.

Yeah sorry about that. LOL

My whole life - I had a public school with walking distance from me. In Elementary school - we shared the schoolyard with a neighbouring public school. In High school - we would take turns going to 2 collegiate schools. Been spending almost every lunch break either getting into fights or getting high since i was 12 years old. LOL

[-ToM-]

also the money is going to the teachers, they keep bitching about pay, so the pay under funds their programs so their salaries can be raised. Think of all the strikes that have happened.

[The Wolf]

Did you go to Huron heights. Or heroin heights lol.

Waterloo-Oxford #hardlyfe

[Default User]

They are public, you don't have to be catholic anymore!

This is true.
There are children of different religious beliefs in my daughters class.

This can also be seen as - the school gets paid per registered student. So basically - wether they believe in the schools religious morals or not, a parent can enrol the child in a catholic school. The school will not turn them away - because it's a cash grab for the school.

[peterm15]

Yeah sorry about that. LOL

My whole life - I had a public school with walking distance from me. In Elementary school - we shared the schoolyard with a neighbouring public school. In High school - we would take turns going to 2 collegiate schools. Been spending almost every lunch break either getting into fights or getting high since i was 12 years old. LOL

10 years old for me. I live in a small town. Lol.

They always got surprised when they got their asses kicked my my school. We were a bunch of " troubled" students. Some were kicked out of many other schools and came to ours. We had the juvy kids and but bags. .

[Default User]

Well then it looks like BOTH school boards aren't doing their jobs LOL

But back on topic

My take on the article

1/ our education system sucks. It's getting worse every year. Lack of funds, not enough pay. Teacher Strikes - work to rule. It's all BS. The school board is a business - plain and simple. It's a business that doesn't make money - so the provincial and federal doesn't have a vested interest in it other than trying to not look as bad as the other provinces.

2/ the government is stupid on all levels. The simple fact that they won't try to amend a 150-year-old document says too much about their willingness to adapt to today's situations.

3/ the Media rather show how fat - I mean - obese kids are getting. Maybe because the school board won't pay for a proper phys Ed program. Or maybe because a playground is not in the budget.

I think the school boards should be combined - one unified public school - and spiritual faith classes are optional.

1/ a world religion class is taught to ALL students. Broaden their views and help them understand or at least respect all religious beliefs

Or

2/ No spiritual faith lessons are taught. No religious day-offs are accepted.

[London3]

Well then it looks like BOTH school boards aren't doing their jobs LOL

But back on topic

My take on the article

1/ our education system sucks. It's getting worse every year. Lack of funds, not enough pay. Teacher Strikes - work to rule. It's all BS. The school board is a business - plain and simple. It's a business that doesn't make money - so the provincial and federal doesn't have a vested interest in it other than trying to not look as bad as the other provinces.

2/ the government is stupid on all levels. The simple fact that they won't try to amend a 150-year-old document says too much about their willingness to adapt to today's situations.

3/ the Media rather show how fat - I mean - obese kids are getting. Maybe because the school board won't pay for a proper phys Ed program. Or maybe because a playground is not in the budget.

I think the school boards should be combined - one unified public school - and spiritual faith classes are optional.

1/ a world religion class is taught to ALL students. Broaden their views and help them understand or at least respect all religious beliefs

Or

2/ No spiritual faith lessons are taught. No religious day-offs are accepted.

VERY well said. +1

[m_bisson]

Catholic schools get way too much money. This summer I was working on a renovation for a k- grade 5 school in Cambridge. They had brand new walls built with high-density, impact resistant drywall. The job was completed and finished and then they came back and said, "Sorry, the walls look too rough, we want a level 5 finish" (Which is basically the smoothest walls money can buy). So that's the level 5 plus 3 coats of paint. They also changed their mind about the floor, going from carpet to some special rubbery/cushioned stuff. At the end of it all, including these changes, they still had money left over that wasn't spent on the reno.

The summer before there was another Catholic school in Kitchener that was able to afford industrial grade epoxy flooring in the hallway of their expansion. That's like $20 a square foot. We also repainted classrooms that were (and still are) scheduled for a repaint 2 years from now.

[FoXy]

I think they should just keep it the way it is. Public schools for kids whos parents choose no religion at all. Catholic schools don't discriminate against any religion. All schools public or public are funded mostly by tax payers, but partially funded by the gov't. I know that in large cities this seems like more of an issue because we live in a place that is EXTREMELY culturally diverse, but outside of the large cities the majority of kids are either public, or christian of some sort.

Mat and I pay our taxes to the french catholic board. 99% of quebecers are roman catholic so we are happy tp pay it to them since he's french. The fact is that in this country is only religiously diverse in the large cities. This country is more than just big cities.

ALSO, let's not forget, this country is a part of the British empire more or less and all that "God save the queen" business comes into play.

Programs and stuff are under funded for a variety of reasons, the FUNDING goes to all the wrong places and not to benifit the kids.

They're still building TONS of new schools, yet in some places, closing some down. There are too many hasty political decisions. Also, teachers are whining too much about pay. But i'm pretty sure that doesn't get funded by the same budget, so I'm not sure.

[rktsci]

The biggest problem with the split system is that you're funding twice for inefficiencies. That said, you would need a larger administration for a single consolidated system but there should still be savings. This would greatly help with funding for supplies and what not. As for fund raising...this isn't anything new. The difference is that their now appears to be a reliance on this funding to maintain basic levels of operation which I disagree with.

I went through the catholic system and can't say that I saw a great benefit from it...if anything the mandatory religion classes probably kept me from taking courses of greater interest. I do however think that in a consolidated system there should be a course available for world religions. When I was in high school we had the OAC year to prep for university but now without it, and the curriculum having been condensed, there really isn't the time for mandatory religion classes.

[Booter22]

I think they should just keep it the way it is. Public schools for kids whos parents choose no religion at all. Catholic schools don't discriminate against any religion. All schools public or public are funded mostly by tax payers, but partially funded by the gov't.

i slightly disagree. public schools are for those who dont want to sent there kids to a "specific" school yet you can still be cathloic and still go to public school and church on the weekends and what ever may happen at home. doesnt mean you have to go to a specific school for your religion same way you dont need to be catholic to go to a catholic school.. but i wouldnt say they dont discriminate... they only really support the catholic faith. your not going to find them teaching another religion there, or at least not a whole class about it. so yes in a way they do discriminate at catholic schools same way they would do at any other specific religious school. that said all schools are funded by tax and gov. but the argument is about the ammount 1/3 of 24 billion.. thats lots of money just for catholic schools and thats what they want to change. why should they get so much more and have it not be devided fair or supported by those parents whos kids go to the school.

sure will be interesting to see how this will play out if there is any difference made at all. i mean the law is over 150 years old, time to look at not just this law but more of them and change the rules. things have changes hand over fist since then. so why should the laws not change with it. i think brampton still has a law you cant ride a horse down main street on sunday.. who the heck is going to ride a horse down main? the nearest farm is wayyy to far away.

[rktsci]

your not going to find them teaching another religion there, or at least not a whole class about it.

That's actually not true...at least not when I was in high school (94-99). Our grade 12 religion class was a 'world religions' class and focused very little on Catholicism. That said, I can't speak to what happens today.

[vinnierap]

Hi everyone and welcome to Ontario. This is the way it has been for 140 years. If you dont like F*CK OFF!!!!! Catholic schools accept ALL people and DO NOT force them to take religion class. When I was in HS we had people of all different religions.

The fact of the matter is that this country was built on the beliefs and fundamentals of Catholicism. Now all of a sudden everyone has a problem with it and wants to change everything. Everyone has a huge problem with the Catholic religion and wants to take God and religion out of the public school system and out of our city and country (EX. "Holiday tree" ITS A ****ING CHRISTMAS TREE). But, God forbid we dont accomodate other religions and allow Muslim prayers to take place in the cafeteria of the schools. What if Catholics or Jews wanted to have a mass in the cafeteria of a public school? Would it be allowed NOOOOOO!!!!!

Also on a side note, the Catholic teachers signed their contract and went back to work without issue. The public teachers are the ones that went on strike and are currently on work to rule or what ever.

No emoticon for it unfortunately * GIANT MIDDLE FINGER*

[aZuMi]

I agree. Just leave it the way it is - this debate is a by produt of the selfishness of government officials.

[Default User]

The fact of the matter is that this country was built on the beliefs and fundamentals of Catholicism. Now all of a sudden everyone has a problem with it and wants to change everything.

I agree - but to be the devils' advocate here:
peoples gripe is that why does a 140 year old system not be able to be updated? Obviously times have changed. the population is way more diverse. and with it - comes new religions. people of Jewish, muslim, faiths etc pay the same taxes as catholics. Yet - the new schools of different faith is privately funded.

I would be pissed too

[aZuMi]

I agree - but to be the devils' advocate here:
peoples gripe is that why does a 140 year old system not be able to be updated? Obviously times have changed. the population is way more diverse. and with it - comes new religions. people of Jewish, muslim, faiths etc pay the same taxes as catholics. Yet - the new schools of different faith is privately funded.

I would be pissed too

I actually don't mind if there are private catholic schools too. I prefer catholic schools being ran by priests, just like in the Philippines :)

But if that's the case, I better not be paying taxes on any public schools.

[mathew.poulos]

this issue lost John Tory an election. The catholic school board has been around for 100+ years and changing that is not going to be an easy thing to accomplish.

What needs to happen is equal funding for all schools, and contrary to popular belief this won't cause segregation of kids.
These Jewish, Muslim, and other religion schools already exist, and tons of children attend them in the GTA. Who do these schools answer to? Not the government thats for sure. At least in the Catholic School board we know they are teaching the kids, what we as a country has deemed to be "The Necessities", and are still able to openly enjoy their religion.

[FoXy]

That's actually not true...at least not when I was in high school (94-99). Our grade 12 religion class was a 'world religions' class and focused very little on Catholicism. That said, I can't speak to what happens today.

+1, I took it in 11 and 12 and I learned more about buddhism, judaism, hinduism, and other religious in fair detail.

[FoXy]

Hi everyone and welcome to Ontario. This is the way it has been for 140 years. If you dont like F*CK OFF!!!!! Catholic schools accept ALL people and DO NOT force them to take religion class. When I was in HS we had people of all different religions.

The fact of the matter is that this country was built on the beliefs and fundamentals of Catholicism. Now all of a sudden everyone has a problem with it and wants to change everything. Everyone has a huge problem with the Catholic religion and wants to take God and religion out of the public school system and out of our city and country (EX. "Holiday tree" ITS A ****ING CHRISTMAS TREE). But, God forbid we dont accomodate other religions and allow Muslim prayers to take place in the cafeteria of the schools. What if Catholics or Jews wanted to have a mass in the cafeteria of a public school? Would it be allowed NOOOOOO!!!!!

Also on a side note, the Catholic teachers signed their contract and went back to work without issue. The public teachers are the ones that went on strike and are currently on work to rule or what ever.

No emoticon for it unfortunately * GIANT MIDDLE FINGER*

+1

minus the giant middle finger lol

[S.F.W.]

this issue lost John Tory an election. The catholic school board has been around for 100+ years and changing that is not going to be an easy thing to accomplish.

What needs to happen is equal funding for all schools, and contrary to popular belief this won't cause segregation of kids.
These Jewish, Muslim, and other religion schools already exist, and tons of children attend them in the GTA. Who do these schools answer to? Not the government thats for sure. .
They are private schools and are funded by the parents. Those parents are essentially paying twice. Once for the public/catholic school portion of their taxes, then a second time as they pay tuition to the individual religious private school

[bubba1983]

Hi everyone and welcome to Ontario. This is the way it has been for 140 years. If you dont like F*CK OFF!!!!! Catholic schools accept ALL people and DO NOT force them to take religion class. When I was in HS we had people of all different religions.

The fact of the matter is that this country was built on the beliefs and fundamentals of Catholicism. Now all of a sudden everyone has a problem with it and wants to change everything. Everyone has a huge problem with the Catholic religion and wants to take God and religion out of the public school system and out of our city and country (EX. "Holiday tree" ITS A ****ING CHRISTMAS TREE). But, God forbid we dont accomodate other religions and allow Muslim prayers to take place in the cafeteria of the schools. What if Catholics or Jews wanted to have a mass in the cafeteria of a public school? Would it be allowed NOOOOOO!!!!!

Also on a side note, the Catholic teachers signed their contract and went back to work without issue. The public teachers are the ones that went on strike and are currently on work to rule or what ever.

No emoticon for it unfortunately * GIANT MIDDLE FINGER*
+2....even with the middle finger....couldnt have said it better myself....just how i feel.

[mathew.poulos]

They are private schools and are funded by the parents. Those parents are essentially paying twice. Once for the public/catholic school portion of their taxes, then a second time as they pay tuition to the individual religious private school

exactly, so why not give equal funding to these schools as well, eliminating the whole "We pay twice as much to express our religion" argument?
And as a bonus we know what these kids are being taught day to day.

[Burner]

They are private schools and are funded by the parents. Those parents are essentially paying twice. Once for the public/catholic school portion of their taxes, then a second time as they pay tuition to the individual religious private school

This is usually the case. I've read that many of the religious schools are funded through the church/temple/mosque that they're affiliated with as well.

In my opinion, the fantasies and fairy tales that are taught in religious based schools should get no public funding whatsoever. Merge the Catholic boards into the public and get rid of the religious nonsense. Then cut taxes since the merger would cut out many of the inefficiencies and inequality two separate boards in each region create.

Keep the status quo as far as religious schools go. If you want your child to be taught in a setting that surrounds them in a specific religion or community, pay for it out of your own pocket.

[Booter22]

Hi everyone and welcome to Ontario. This is the way it has been for 140 years. Catholic schools accept ALL people and DO NOT force them to take religion class. When I was in HS we had people of all different religions.

The fact of the matter is that this country was built on the beliefs and fundamentals of Catholicism. Now all of a sudden everyone has a problem with it and wants to change everything. Everyone has a huge problem with the Catholic religion and wants to take God and religion out of the public school system and out of our city and country (EX. "Holiday tree" ITS A ****ING CHRISTMAS TREE). But, God forbid we dont accomodate other religions and allow Muslim prayers to take place in the cafeteria of the schools. What if Catholics or Jews wanted to have a mass in the cafeteria of a public school? Would it be allowed NOOOOOO!!!!!

Also on a side note, the Catholic teachers signed their contract and went back to work without issue. The public teachers are the ones that went on strike and are currently on work to rule or what ever.

tons of good points. i really like the christmas tree one. but that i think was changed more so from other beliefs and cane down to effect the main stream. but your right as well it has been this way for a long time, and not saying now it is right anymore. but i think it should be looked at as far as what they provide in regards to funding.. 1/3 of 24 billion is alot of money. what do they do with the other 2/3? if anything is not 1/4 enough? 1/4 to catholic, 1/4 to public, 1/4 to the private sector and 1/4 to what ever they do with anything else. buti dont remeber any religion when i was in public school, i hardly remember anyone in catholic schools talking about religion.. or those that went even being awake in the class to remember anything about it ( which neglects the point to have those in that class or if the class is that bad to have it at all ) but as i never went to a catholic school im not sure how it would be. maybe it needs to come a bit more up to date as well.. like the rest of the school system.

[FoXy]

I dont believe that the gov't should fund other religous schools. This country was based mainly on one religion back when and jsut because a bunch of other cultures have come here doesnt mean they can just take over and start demanding shit.

The government doesnt discriminate for anything else based on culture, but let's be real here... they get ALL the same rights as anyone else, but there is not enough different cultured people to warrent the gov't paying for other religious schools. LIke I said before, outside the big city those ppl are few and far between. I dont feel they should have public funding for that.

I for one and glad I went to a catholic school. Yes, not all the kids are apprciative and care about religion, but thats because their parents dont care to enstil in them that it's important. My parents did and I remember a ton about my own relgion personally.

It's all about people trying to segregate themselves. If they had it their way, all the kids would be in different schools based on religion.

You may not like the fact that the taxes go to catholic schools, but taxes go to a LOT of things ppl dont like. Do you think they care? Hell no. Tax dollars go to give drud addicts needles and abortion clinics.... don't see me complining. How about they cut the welfare budget and do us all a favour... I would MUCH rather that.

[mathew.poulos]

It's all about people trying to segregate themselves. If they had it their way, all the kids would be in different schools based on religion.


Its not segregation, these schools exist today.
But they function in their own jurisdiction, no mandatory testing, no set curriculum. Giving them funding would be bringing them into our school systems not taking them out.

[FoXy]

Its not segregation, these schools exist today.
But they function in their own jurisdiction, no mandatory testing, no set curriculum. Giving them funding would be bringing them into our school systems not taking them out.

Ya.. but if they were free then most ppl would be doing it.

Then they would complain they don't like the curriculem.

[mathew.poulos]

Ya.. but if they were free then most ppl would be doing it.

Then they would complain they don't like the curriculem.

Its amazing how many people are doing it now. And as S.F.W said, they are paying double for their education.

As for the complaining about the curriculum, your right human nature says we will never be happy.

[FoXy]

Its amazing how many people are doing it now. And as S.F.W said, they are paying double for their education.

As for the complaining about the curriculum, your right human nature says we will never be happy.

If they want to pay to have their kid raised in something that isnt the norm be my guest. But don't come and imigrate to this country then start demanding that we do shit your way just because you have different beliefs (refering to the dumb woman who started this debate in the news).

If ppl don't like it they know where the fcking door is.

[Default User]

I actually don't mind if there are private catholic schools too. I prefer catholic schools being ran by priests, just like in the Philippines :)

But if that's the case, I better not be paying taxes on any public schools.


They are private schools and are funded by the parents. Those parents are essentially paying twice. Once for the public/catholic school portion of their taxes, then a second time as they pay tuition to the individual religious private school

and this is exactly what the debate is about.
why should anybody have to pay twice?

[mathew.poulos]

If they want to pay to have their kid raised in something that isnt the norm be my guest. But don't come and imigrate to this country then start demanding that we do shit your way just because you have different beliefs (refering to the dumb woman who started this debate in the news).


What about people who's generations trace farther back in Canada than yours or mine? what makes Catholic the norm and Judaism not?
Its 2012, to think any religion is better(or more normal) than another is outdated thinking.

They all are ****ing dumb in my opinion.

[Booter22]

If they want to pay to have their kid raised in something that isnt the norm be my guest. But don't come and imigrate to this country then start demanding that we do shit your way just because you have different beliefs (refering to the dumb woman who started this debate in the news).

If ppl don't like it they know where the fcking door is.

and this is the thinking and reason why as a society we take so long to move forward because everything is so closed minded. its this way and its the only way. yes i dont believe that changing christmas tree to a holiday tree is fair even to be "politically" correct as you dont see a change for happy hanukkah or any other religious holidays as to not offened other peoples... but when there is no discussion about issues and concerns. they didnt demand the laws are change but bring up good reason why they should be or at least revisited to be updated. if everyone was told at every momment of they didnt agree with something that they dont like it they know where the door is. we would never be moving forward. but not just this im sure theres tons of old laws and rules that need the same attention. hopefully there will be a good resolve to this.

[FoXy]

I'd rather have faith in something than faith in nothing. Saying all religion is dumb is pretty ignorant to say. I mean I am not super hardcore about it but there would be a LOT of ppl would there who would take SERIOUS offense to that.

I dont necessarily agree that ppl should have to pay twice.... it's a fine line. Regardless, they want your tax money. Probably because they need it more than anything else lol

[mathew.poulos]

I spend my whole life doing good for others, do my best to be a good person, the day before I die I eat some Dairy with some Meat, eternal damnation... ya that makes alot of sense.

Catholics used to not eat fish on Fridays, they realized it was an out of date rule and now nobody follows it. What about all those poor son of a bitches burning in hell for having a Fillet o' Fish on Friday?

Those are very facetious examples, but it shines a light on the whole idea of religion.

[Default User]

I think one concern, is that if the govt started funding ALL schools - how would the budget be divided?

I mean - yes Catholic, Jewish and Muslim based schools are the most common. But then you have Scientology, etc, that will want their own schools which will lead to some random wave of new cult religions wanting to open their own schools.

Further to that - who will write the curriculum for each school? Teach at the school?

[mathew.poulos]

I think one concern, is that if the govt started funding ALL schools - how would the budget be divided?

I mean - yes Catholic, Jewish and Muslim based schools are the most common. But then you have Scientology, etc, that will want their own schools which will lead to some random wave of new cult religions wanting to open their own schools.

Further to that - who will write the curriculum for each school? Teach at the school?

Now we are into the exacts of it. For curriculum we would use the same facilities that write for Catholic and Public, the only difference would be the religious aspect of it.

Schools would obviously be inspected by Super Intendants, who would determine who is legitimate and who is scamming people for money.

The government is already doing all those checks on Church's who try to be Tax Exempt, so its really not that difficult.

[Default User]

and what about the tax dollars from people that do not / or cannot have kids?
why should they have to pay for anybody's education

[FoXy]

lol its all part of paying taxes.

We all pay for tons of shit we never use.

[rajin929]

i don't mind paying taxes.
what pisses me off, is when the govn't mis-manages it and forces me to pay more to cover the shortfall.

[peterm15]

Let's face it. All religion is dumb. It doesn't mean you shouldn't believe, or have a religion. But when you get down to the root they all teach the same thing. Respect for others.

( just trying to stir shit up. )

Everyone here is making good points on either side of the subject. My fav line yet though. You know where the door is. To many Canada bashers IMO. ( not in this thread just in general )

[FoXy]

Agreed.... If I moved to India, or China, or Pakisitan or WHICH ever country... I wouldnt start demanding that they change all the religous schools and start making everyone go to the same school. Which is basically what is happening here.

ITS A DOUBLE STANDARD PEOPLE!

In Canada we have made people to believe that everyoen can have whatever they want if they whine loud enough. There are too many whiny ass people in this country who want to have their cake and eat it too and say screw the way Canada is currently. Everyone wants their own way.

Guess what?

You cant facking please everyone! So stfu and :getout

[aZuMi]

Actually, in some parts of middle east. You're not allowed to practice other religion except for Islam. No offence to my muslim friends, but it's the reality we face.


Agreed.... If I moved to India, or China, or Pakisitan or WHICH ever country... I wouldnt start demanding that they change all the religous schools and start making everyone go to the same school. Which is basically what is happening here.

ITS A DOUBLE STANDARD PEOPLE!

In Canada we have made people to believe that everyoen can have whatever they want if they whine loud enough. There are too many whiny ass people in this country who want to have their cake and eat it too and say screw the way Canada is currently. Everyone wants their own way.

Guess what?

You cant facking please everyone! So stfu and :getout

[mathew.poulos]

All these points back up the OP, If immigrants shouldn't have their own schools then why should Catholics.

"Thats 'just the way it is" isn't an argument, we are suppose to be evolving as a society not hiding behind ancient rules.

[aZuMi]

"Thats 'just the way it is" isn't an argument, we are suppose to be evolving as a society not hiding behind ancient rules.

This statement is way too simple without consideration on how we did evolve as a society. What you're saying is unrealistic and it won't happen in your life time. Look at historical facts and we're all quite lucky to live in this lifetime - regardless of culture and religious faiths.

[FoXy]

Regardless.... it IS the way it is... so tough. I highly doubt its gonna change ANY time soon. And if they tried to.... there would be a LOT of pissed off Canadians.

[mathew.poulos]

This statement is way too simple without consideration on how we did evolve as a society. What you're saying is unrealistic and it won't happen in your life time. Look at historical facts and we're all quite lucky to live in this lifetime.

Though it may seem that I am open to equal funding schools I am actually against it, One school system, everyone learns like everyone else. Plain and Simple.

My post were to show how unbelievable it is to think that we still "Favor" one religion over another.

[vinnierap]

[QUOTE=mathew.poulos;1011643]I spend my whole life doing good for others, do my best to be a good person, the day before I die I eat some Dairy with some Meat, eternal damnation... ya that makes alot of sense.

Catholics used to not eat fish on Fridays, they realized it was an out of date rule and now nobody follows it. What about all those poor son of a bitches burning in hell for having a Fillet o' Fish on Friday?


Your first comment just goes to show how ignorant you are towards religon and howmuch you dont know.

Also +10000 to pretty much everything Foxy said....lol...

[mathew.poulos]

Your first comment just goes to show how ignorant you are towards religon and howmuch you dont know.

Also +10000 to pretty much everything Foxy said....lol...

Oh sorry they HAD to eat fish on Fridays(No meat aloud), my mistake.

That just proves even more how stupid the whole thing is. One day in the 1960's the Pope decides to just change the rules that "God" made?

[peterm15]

All these points back up the OP, If immigrants shouldn't have their own schools then why should Catholics..

Because we are historically a culture that follows Catholicism. Keep in mind we weren't always as multi-cultural as we now are. Why should we change the rules now. As said earlier. In some countries you will be kill for being any other religion then that accepted by their culture. This is the exact reason why Canada has refugees. Religious persecution.

Oh sorry they HAD to eat fish on Fridays(No meat aloud), my mistake.

That just proves even more how stupid the whole thing is. One day in the 1960's the Pope decides to just change the rules that "God" made?

Actually neither God nor Jesus ever made these rules.

[Burner]

Actually neither God nor Jesus ever made these rules.

Exactly. The rules are the invention of men. Just as all gods throughout history were the invention of men as a simplified way to explain the world. Jesus is actually the sun, not a man. Over time the story has been twisted into the ridiculous fairy tale as we know it today.

We do a disservice to society as a whole by promoting these fantastical beliefs that all of the mainstream religions promote as truth. We could progress as one society if we stopped teaching this to our children and allowed them to open their minds to the reality in the world.

[peterm15]

Exactly. The rules are the invention of men. Just as all gods throughout history were the invention of men as a simplified way to explain the world. Jesus is actually the sun, not a man. Over time the story has been twisted into the ridiculous fairy tale as we know it today.

We do a disservice to society as a whole by promoting these fantastical beliefs that all of the mainstream religions promote as truth. We could progress as one society if we stopped teaching this to our children and allowed them to open their minds to the reality in the world.

Is the belief of god being the sun not from another religion. I realize you said Jesus, but I have studied many religions and have yet to come across that statement.

As for the disservice I agree with you. Although you will never change something that occurs in most of the worlds populations.

Keep in mind that Canada is such a small portion of the worlds population. There is 3 cities in the USA ( NYC, LA, and another that I can't remember ) that have more population then all of Canada. As hitler once said. " why should we live with 100 people per sq mile when a country like Canada lives with 1 person every 100 sq miles " ( I parafrase. )

My point being like foxy said. As Canadians we roll over to everyone else. Just give people what they want. Although I do believe that we should have 1 school system, maybe with many different religious based schools. I honestly don't see why we have to give everyone everything they want. The catholic school system had been progressively getting more tollerent towards other religions and beliefs. To the point where they teach evolution ( which goes against the creationsisim model) Why not merge into the public system, and the religion system.

( I don't know if I'm coming off right though out the topic, but I really do stand by my, fund all or none. I just don't see why we should stop funding to a school system that have been around longer then the public school system. )

[jonjon72]

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/jonjon72/jesusallahbuddah.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/jonjon72/relgionislike.jpg

[mathew.poulos]

Actually neither God nor Jesus ever made these rules.

Thats my point exactly! We should changes the rules now because this isn't 1867 its 2012 and there is more than 1 predominant religion in this country.

[peterm15]

Thats my point exactly! We should changes the rules now because this isn't 1867 its 2012 and there is more than 1 predominant religion in this country.
I'm surprised you got the year of confederation. I wouldnt think thats a number most people can pull off the top of their head . But keep in mind. Canada didn't become a completed country until 1950. Lol. ( just being an ass)

We've just become to accommodating to other cultures within Canada while not embracing our own. Canada is and should always be a commonwealth, catholicism nations.

Just to play devils advocate I would like to point out while i was baptized by my catholic father and no religion mother, I do not believe in organized religion at all. I'm actually quite against it, it causes more wars then anything else. BUT most of all I am Canadian, and this is about keeping our nation our own. Why fold to everyone else. There is nothing wrong with being multi-cultural but putting other cultures over our own is just foolish. We will all learn to co-exist so why not just leave things be and let us do so.

[-RJ3-]

Can't we all just get along?

[Default User]

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/jonjon72/jesusallahbuddah.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/jonjon72/relgionislike.jpg

LMAO

[Default User]

Wow - A.D.D. In this thread LOL

All of a sudden, this became a battle of Evolutionists vs Creationists.

Anyways - as mentioned earlier - the govt and both school boards being petty and money hungry.

On the news today - I heard teachers are now discouraged to write comments in a child's report card. THIS is a decision by the TDSB to settle a teachers salary dispute. Apparently, the teachers feel they aren't getting paid enough to do clerical duties such as "report cards"

[-RJ3-]

Omg. The teachers are reinventing the teaching system. How greedy can one get? If you want to get paid higher. Find another profession!

[Default User]

Omg. The teachers are reinventing the teaching system. How greedy can one get? If you want to get paid higher. Find another profession!

Notice I said "TDSB" - not to get confused with the Catholic school board LOL

:gone

[-RJ3-]

Lmao

[mathew.poulos]

( just being an ass)

Thats what I've been doing this whole thread lol

[Flagrum_3]

[QUOTE=mathew.poulos;1011643]I spend my whole life doing good for others, do my best to be a good person, the day before I die I eat some Dairy with some Meat, eternal damnation... ya that makes alot of sense.

Catholics used to not eat fish on Fridays, they realized it was an out of date rule and now nobody follows it. What about all those poor son of a bitches burning in hell for having a Fillet o' Fish on Friday?


Your first comment just goes to show how ignorant you are towards religon and howmuch you dont know.

Also +10000 to pretty much everything Foxy said....lol...

Big +1, As to the fishy Fridays; Catholics are not expected to follow some of the more rediculous church doctrin, just the teachings of Jesus Christ and the commandments, atleast thats the way I understand it.
Anyways, as too the topic at hand, I remember when I was in Catholic school, many moons ago, my parents had to pay extra for my siblings and I to attend. Sometime after that, this stopped and it became funded completely by the government, or more precisely from public tax revenues. It was quite the burden, financially on my parents, but for some reason they thought it was worth it. As to the question why we should have separate catholic funded schools in Canada; Remember this country was built by Catholic/ Christian people and the majority of the population still are.

_3

[Default User]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/19/utene5yb.jpg

[S.F.W.]

On the news today - I heard teachers are now discouraged to write comments in a child's report card. THIS is a decision by the TDSB to settle a teachers salary dispute. Apparently, the teachers feel they aren't getting paid enough to do clerical duties such as "report cards"

This thread is going all over the place, but I need to jump in on this statement. It is more than a salary dispute. It is about the government removing the teachers right to collectively bargain their contract. They are instituting wages, and work instructions without allowing teachers to negotiate as is their legal right.

[Default User]

LOL - yeah I didn't want to get into all the details for fear that it'll go off topic again

[FoXy]

:pop

[boyracer]

http://forums.clubrsx.com/images/smilies/inoutugh.gif

[Burner]

Is the belief of god being the sun not from another religion. I realize you said Jesus, but I have studied many religions and have yet to come across that statement.

God's Sun (son). The "three kings" (constellation in Orion's belt) follow the star in the East (Sirius) to the birth of God's son (sunrise at the winter solstice on the 25th of December). A story told out of simple astrology. Interestingly, the resurrection of JC occurs at the same time as the spring equinox when the sun is rising from it's winter slumber and the days get longer.

[peterm15]

So it is just exchanging one belief for another.

[The Wolf]

God's Sun (son). The "three kings" (constellation in Orion's belt) follow the star in the East (Sirius) to the birth of God's son (sunrise at the winter solstice on the 25th of December). A story told out of simple astrology. Interestingly, the resurrection of JC occurs at the same time as the spring equinox when the sun is rising from it's winter slumber and the days get longer.

Are the Hebrew words for "sun" and "son" homonyms like they are in English? Also December 25th is not regard as Jesus' actual date of birth, it was merely an excuse to pirate an existing pagan holiday

[S.F.W.]

Are the Hebrew words for "sun" and "son" homonyms like they are in English?
No

[Booostin]

The Catholic school system in Ontario was enshrined in the Constitution Act 1867. That puts it on equal legal footing as the Charter. Hence the Charter cannot be used to strike it down. It will require a Constitutional amendment to change it. FWIW, the wife of our (now former) premier is a teacher in the Catholic system.

[The Wolf]

No

Lol, it was rhetorical anyway :)

[Default User]

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-1.html][/url]

93 (4) – Education

In case any such Provincial Law as from Time to Time seems to the Governor General in Council requisite for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section is not made, or in case any Decision of the Governor General in Council on any Appeal under this Section is not duly executed by the proper Provincial Authority in that Behalf, then and in every such Case, and as far only as the Circumstances of each Case require, the Parliament of Canada may make remedial Laws for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section and of any Decision of the Governor General in Council under this Section.

15 (1) – Equality

Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.


27 Multicultural Heritage
This Charter shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with the preservation and enhancement of the multicultural heritage of Canadians.


Interpret it as you will
Obviously I did not read (or understand) the entire constitutional act – but as I paraphrase these charters:
- Parliament CAN revise the laws regarding education based on the its charters to “preservation and enhancement” of Canada’s multicultural heritage, without bias or discrimination to the right of all man being equal.

The fact that they wont even here it - is ignorant

[Default User]

And guess what my daughter brought home from (catholic) school yesterday...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/19/eqytydas.jpg

A Halloween Dance-a-thon fundraising pledge sheet.

10% of the funds collected go to prizes for the kids.
90% to support school-wide needs.

WTF?! EVERY student just handed over their own school supplies for the year, along with hand wipes and facial tissue, etc.

At about 270 students raising an average of $30-40 that's over $7000 going to the schools "needs". This is the 3rd fundraiser this year.

Tell me - what government funding are the Catholic schools getting if they need $7 grand every month from fundraisers? And where is the money going to?

[peterm15]

Tell me - what government funding are the Catholic schools getting if they need $7 grand every month from fundraisers? And where is the money going to?

We've been through this. Union bosses and the fact that the provincial government has just handed them everything they have wanted for the past 10 years or so.

This goes for all public sector jobs. Not just the teachers union. And it's not ment against teachers. Just those who represent them.

[Flagrum_3]

We've been through this. Union bosses and the fact that the provincial government has just handed them everything they have wanted for the past 10 years or so.

This goes for all public sector jobs. Not just the teachers union. And it's not ment against teachers. Just those who represent them.

Thats funny I thought Union Bosses were paid from union dues paid out by the union members. You obviously have no clue about unions or also the topic of religion, based on your rediculously stupid comments. You show not only extreme ignorance, but also an extreme bias. Where do you think anyone would be today without unions? I'll tell you; like the underage kids in China making everyones latest toys including iphones, working 14 hours days and getting paid peanuts, thats where you'd be. Forget bonuses or benefits or even good pay. Why do you think the Government is so intent on killing unions or taking their bargaining status away. Because our Government is run by the people who would benefit the most by doing so: big business. Think I'm wrong? Try doing some reading and include some history books in there.

By the way have you checked the salaries of non-union managers, presidents, MPs who actually run all these public sector departments? Or why not salaries of all companies and their managers, CEOs while your at it....Somehow I doubt you have.


_3