Wheels or Coils first?

[LimeWan]

Just want to start off saying that I've read the other threads that have asked this question, but I just want to dive a bit deeper.

First off, want to say that the suspension setup I'm thinking is Koni Yellows, with Eibach Pro Kits.

I have heard people say, maintenance before mods, but is suspension really considered maintenance? I'd say it's just as much a mod for looks as rims are.

Next, do coils really improve your car's handling as much as people say it does? What exactly feels different about the way it handles? Also, I know it depends on the coils and their setup, but how does the ride compare to stock coils? Is it generally a lot harder, smoother, or the same?

What I want out of the coils is to remove the wheel gap (no surprise there), but not have the car 'slammed', as some people put it. I would maybe want one finger width or so clearance from the fender.

I know that koni yellows are highly praised on this forum, but what springs would be recommended for what I'm looking for? I know pro kits are also a popular option, but will that get me with the desired gap I'm looking for?

Final thing is, I could probably only get one thing done until about sometime in August. I want to do both mods eventually, but need to choose one for right now.

Since most of summer will be gone by August, would wheels not seem like the best first choice until then?

Would just like some input on all of these statements, and hopefully an idea of what to do first.

Thanks!

[FD22]

My replies are in red..



Just want to start off saying that I've read the other threads that have asked this question, but I just want to dive a bit deeper.

First off, want to say that the suspension setup I'm thinking is Koni Yellows, with Eibach Pro Kits.

I have heard people say, maintenance before mods, but is suspension really considered maintenance? I'd say it's just as much a mod for looks as rims are.

If your OEM shocks/struts are leaking, then I'd say that's pretty much classified as maintenance. You don't want to be driving around on blown shocks for too long.

Next, do coils really improve your car's handling as much as people say it does? What exactly feels different about the way it handles? Also, I know it depends on the coils and their setup, but how does the ride compare to stock coils? Is it generally a lot harder, smoother, or the same?

Yes. Coils are able to stiffen the dampening, allowing for less travel when hitting bumps. This is turn serves up a stiffer ride, and gets the car stable without much vertical oscillation (as you'd experience with the "softer" more comfortable OEM setup). Lowering the car also lowers your center of gravity, which will help reduce body roll. Once again, a more stable ride when cornering. Your ride is likely going to be a bit harder with coils, depending on which ones you go with, and what you set them at.

What I want out of the coils is to remove the wheel gap (no surprise there), but not have the car 'slammed', as some people put it. I would maybe want one finger width or so clearance from the fender.

I know that koni yellows are highly praised on this forum, but what springs would be recommended for what I'm looking for? I know pro kits are also a popular option, but will that get me with the desired gap I'm looking for?

Not likely. You'd probably want to look out for some Sportlines instead. Some old saggy Prokits could get you that level of drop (oh hey, I'm selling such a set ;)) but if you're buying them new/gently used, then a set of Prokits probably won't get you to just a one finger gap.

Final thing is, I could probably only get one thing done until about sometime in August. I want to do both mods eventually, but need to choose one for right now.

Since most of summer will be gone by August, would wheels not seem like the best first choice until then?

This is really up to your preference. I would personally do coils first, because most aftermarket wheels just look odd on MZ3's at stock height. But that's just me, and I'm a stickler for wheel gap :P

Would just like some input on all of these statements, and hopefully an idea of what to do first.

Thanks!

[LimeWan]

My replies are in red..

I know that Pro Kits offer a minimal drop, but how much lower could you go with the Pro Kits on adjustable shocks like Yellow's vs Pro Kits on Stock shocks?

If you look at Aitch's ride, I believe he's on Pro Kits with stock shocks, and they seem to fit very well. Like I said, I don't want to go too low; I just want to have the wheels fit in nicely with the car.

Also, when do you need to roll and/or pull your fender? I'm looking at a set of wheels 18x8, with a +35 or +42 mm offset on a gen2, and don't know why or if or when I would ever need to roll or pull.

And lastly, with people that DO have just a one finger gap, 1) Will even slight dips in the road (manholes) cause any damage to anything over time (would try avoiding to begin with, but if given no choice), and 2) will you still be able to carry cargo and/or people in the back? I'm sure fitting people nicely would be a bit of a stretch, but i guess what I'm asking is, how much more are you limited now, and what CAN you actually carry?

Thanks a lot!

[FD22]

Do some more searching on the forum for reviews and threads about this kind of stuff. For the most part, this is very basic information that you should be able to learn from online sources pretty quickly. It'll give you a better idea of what to do. But until then, find my answers in red, once again..


I know that Pro Kits offer a minimal drop, but how much lower could you go with the Pro Kits on adjustable shocks like Yellow's vs Pro Kits on Stock shocks?

The adjustability of shocks is with the dampening rate, not the height themselves. Coilovers are what you want for that.

If you look at Aitch's ride, I believe he's on Pro Kits with stock shocks, and they seem to fit very well. Like I said, I don't want to go too low; I just want to have the wheels fit in nicely with the car.

Keep in mind he's got a Gen2 with Gen1 Prokits (if I'm not mistaken). The added weight of the Gen2 will drop the car further as opposed to a Gen1. I wasn't aware you had a Gen2.

Also, when do you need to roll and/or pull your fender? I'm looking at a set of wheels 18x8, with a +35 or +42 mm offset on a gen2, and don't know why or if or when I would ever need to roll or pull.

That sort of setup with Prokits probably wouldn't need any fender work to my knowledge, but the only way to be certain is fitting them. If anything, you might need a slight roll. But I would highly doubt it. This is assuming you don't go with super-beefy tires.

And lastly, with people that DO have just a one finger gap, 1) Will even slight dips in the road (manholes) cause any damage to anything over time (would try avoiding to begin with, but if given no choice), and 2) will you still be able to carry cargo and/or people in the back? I'm sure fitting people nicely would be a bit of a stretch, but i guess what I'm asking is, how much more are you limited now, and what CAN you actually carry?

Again, this depends on the stiffness of your suspension. The stiffer it is, the less likely it'll compress on bumps/when loaded. Usually though, if you've got a finger gap, things should be fine at a relatively stiff setting.

Thanks a lot!

[Aitch]

I have about 1-2 fingers gap, but mine are first generation springs on a second gen car. There are differences between the specific springs.

Note that coilovers and springs/shocks are different. Only the former would allow you to adjust ride height.

Lastly, it's always suspension before wheels. All other factors aside, if you plan on lowering anyway, aftermarket rims at stock height just looks wrong.

[LimeWan]

So what's the big deal about shocks? If they're not adjustable in terms of drop, is the adjustability in stiffness really worth the price?

I have read that you cannot use sportlines (or any more aggressive springs like these) with stock shocks, so I guess that's another reason for shocks.

All that said, would it be advisable to go for coilovers or spring/shock combo?

With coils, you could get the exact drop you want, but I'm not sure how big of a deal this is.

And Aitch , why did you need to hammer and paint seal? Was it because your wheels were too wide? This suspension stuff is making more sense, but I still don't get when you would have to pull fenders when lowering, since wheel still appears to be below the fender, so how would they interfere?

[greyseason]

you dun did research?

[Kiyomi]

if your wheels are too wide or you have too much offset, and/or your fenders are not rolled/pulled/flared, you may rub. :D

with coils, you can adjust. get camber arms, and u can get away with even more.

basically, it sounds like your goals are to get rid of the wheel gap. with the money your gonna spend on the shocks/springs, might as well fork out a little more for the coils and get the adjustability you want. if you want even more handling performance, get an aftermarket sway bar and set it to a stiffer setting. why? because it helps stiffen up the rear and to counter the natural understeer of the mazda 3.

[LimeWan]

if your wheels are too wide or you have too much offset, and/or your fenders are not rolled/pulled/flared, you may rub. :D

with coils, you can adjust. get camber arms, and u can get away with even more.

basically, it sounds like your goals are to get rid of the wheel gap. with the money your gonna spend on the shocks/springs, might as well fork out a little more for the coils and get the adjustability you want. if you want even more handling performance, get an aftermarket sway bar and set it to a stiffer setting. why? because it helps stiffen up the rear and to counter the natural understeer of the mazda 3.

Up until now, I've only set my mind to visual mods, but all of the reviews and criticism in terms of upgraded parts just makes me want to go ahead and upgrade the suspension.

The sway bar is also something I have considered. Will check now whether or not I could buy anywhere locally, or if it will have to be ordered from Corksport.

Also, would coilovers be good for the winter, in the sense that you could raise the car a bit if worried about snow? I forgot where I heard this, but in the winter, would anything happen to the coilovers? If I remember correctly, coilovers have gas in them, so in winter, that gas should condense. Should any issues arise?

Thank you!

EDIT: YES!!! I can finally edit my posts!!!!! Anyway, am about to search a bit about H & R coilovers, another name I heard thrown around a lot and apparently has a very good rep. Drop looks to be very nice.

[LimeWan]

you dun did research?

I din dun do wut i do dun did.

i shall not be judged

[crasth]

I have yellows on h&r springs and im liking them a lot, ride i would say is slightly stiffer than stock and the drop is just what i wanted, i would highly recomend this set up.. coils in my opinion are too expensive.(if u want the good ones of course)

[LimeWan]

I have yellows on h&r springs and im liking them a lot, ride i would say is slightly stiffer than stock and the drop is just what i wanted, i would highly recomend this set up.. coils in my opinion are too expensive.(if u want the good ones of course)

From what I can recall, Yellows - $700, H & R springs - (not sure, but..) $250, total $950

H & R coilovers, $1250.

$300 more.

Once you hit the $1000 mark, I feel like a couple hundred dollars, if the other item is truly better, is nothing to be conservative on.

Will check out your ride thread for some pics. I like the idea of the coils being adjustable, but still have to now compare between different options, as they all ride slightly different.

[crasth]

From what I can recall, Yellows - $700, H & R springs - (not sure, but..) $250, total $950

H & R coilovers, $1250.

$300 more.

Once you hit the $1000 mark, I feel like a couple hundred dollars, if the other item is truly better, is nothing to be conservative on.

Will check out your ride thread for some pics. I like the idea of the coils being adjustable, but still have to now compare between different options, as they all ride slightly different.

I got the springs used for a good pricd so i spent about 600 on the set up.i know coils are better but again im quite happy with my h&r and yellows since i just wanted to get rid of my wheel gap a lil bit. I dont have a. Ride thread as of now but im thinking of making one lol!

[LimeWan]

I got the springs used for a good pricd so i spent about 600 on the set up.i know coils are better but again im quite happy with my h&r and yellows since i just wanted to get rid of my wheel gap a lil bit. I dont have a. Ride thread as of now but im thinking of making one lol!

Saw the pic you posted on the "post your latest purchases" thread or something. What I dislike is when people try showing the wheel gap at such a high angle. By crouching a bit and taking at the gap height, people get a much better idea of what the gap looks like.

[crasth]

Saw the pic you posted on the "post your latest purchases" thread or something. What I dislike is when people try showing the wheel gap at such a high angle. By crouching a bit and taking at the gap height, people get a much better idea of what the gap looks like.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/05/jybyzate.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/05/da6ymube.jpg
Maybe these will show a better view of the drop

[LimeWan]

Maybe these will show a better view of the drop

Way better! Thank you!

But yeah, apparently the ride on coils should be similar to stock ride, so for just $300 more brand new, I think it would be a good choice.

[crasth]

Way better! Thank you!

But yeah, apparently the ride on coils should be similar to stock ride, so for just $300 more brand new, I think it would be a good choice.


oh yah for sure,if its in ur budget coils are a good choice! Just make sure to post pics of whatever u buy lol

[LimeWan]

oh yah for sure,if its in ur budget coils are a good choice! Just make sure to post pics of whatever u buy lol

Ideally would like to deal cash and purchase immediately at a 'local' shop, but may be hard to find and only option may be online.

[Cab0oze]

I'm lazy and didn't read anything in this topic, but to reply to the title - suspension.

Aftermarket wheels look stupid if you've got a huge wheel gap, whereas less wheel gap looks great even with stock wheels.

[ken6214]

Koni Orange+ H&R spring package is on sale for $514 on the koni website right now.

[Aitch]

So what's the big deal about shocks? If they're not adjustable in terms of drop, is the adjustability in stiffness really worth the price?

There are also non-adjustable shocks, which are less expensive. Eg. Koni yellow are adjustable, orange are not. Most people with adjustable shocks will adjust them once to their liking and leave them. You'd probably be fine with non-adjustable ones.


I have read that you cannot use sportlines (or any more aggressive springs like these) with stock shocks, so I guess that's another reason for shocks.

If you have any amount of mileage on your stock shocks, get upgraded ones for lowering springs. I'm using my stock shocks but I've only got 30k on them so far from new. In another year I will probably be ready for stiffer shocks.


All that said, would it be advisable to go for coilovers or spring/shock combo?

With coils, you could get the exact drop you want, but I'm not sure how big of a deal this is.

If you look around enough at the drop other people have on the springs you are considering, you should be able to get just about the right drop out of springs as well. Eg. my springs came from another 2nd gen owner, I looked at his ride height on the springs and knew it was exactly what I wanted.


And @Aitch (http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/member.php?u=2301) , why did you need to hammer and paint seal? Was it because your wheels were too wide? This suspension stuff is making more sense, but I still don't get when you would have to pull fenders when lowering, since wheel still appears to be below the fender, so how would they interfere?

I have slightly larger than stock summer tires, and my wheels sit pretty flush with the fender which isn't true for stock wheels. So lowered, on my summer wheels, I rub. Thus I hammered the fender edges flatter on the inside and sealed them since the paint cracks when you don't use a heat gun and a fender roller. Just lowering on stock-ish wheel/tire specs won't make you rub the fenders.


Also, would coilovers be good for the winter, in the sense that you could raise the car a bit if worried about snow? I forgot where I heard this, but in the winter, would anything happen to the coilovers? If I remember correctly, coilovers have gas in them, so in winter, that gas should condense. Should any issues arise?

All shocks have gas in them. Winter will not affect this.

Here's the difference between "coilovers" and shocks. The first has threads to let you adjust the height of the springs, and usually some sort of damping adjustment. The main maintenance issue to consider is that these threads tend to get corroded in our winters, so after a while you can't adjust the ride height anymore. To get around this you need to clean and grease them 1-2 times a year.


Way better! Thank you!

But yeah, apparently the ride on coils should be similar to stock ride, so for just $300 more brand new, I think it would be a good choice.

I think people tend to say that the ride on good quality coils is better than stock, in that it is firmer and more controlled, and sometimes not too harsh (again, on good quality parts). However, it is not the same as stock. It will be firmer, in some cases markedly so. That's just the nature of shorter travel and stiffer damping.


It probably seems like I'm trying to talk you out of coils. I'm not. I just don't think that they are always the answer, and in some cases, may be the wrong answer.



Up until now, I've only set my mind to visual mods, but all of the reviews and criticism in terms of upgraded parts just makes me want to go ahead and upgrade the suspension.

The sway bar is also something I have considered. Will check now whether or not I could buy anywhere locally, or if it will have to be ordered from Corksport.

Deal with the lowering first. Then add a swaybar later. It is a worthwhile addition, but sometimes it's good to add one thing at a time so you can determine what the difference in feel is from.

[greyseason]

I din dun do wut i do dun did.

i shall not be judged

if you researched you would have answers to every single question youve asked here, especially on suspension. The ONLY thing that would be speculation is ride height, and we have a thread for that..

[LimeWan]

if you researched you would have answers to every single question youve asked here, especially on suspension. The ONLY thing that would be speculation is ride height, and we have a thread for that..

Oh no! Another thread that's been asked a million times!

If the thread was an issue, I'm sure a mod would have removed it by now.

From what I saw, there was no RECENT thread like this one on the subforum, so what's it to you?

I don't understand why people love policing certain forums. Yes, I have read some of the other threads, even ones from this site, but I just felt like asking the questions that were important to me, where I could have all relevant feedback organized in one place.

[greyseason]

I dont police anything, its just i know IVE done my own research on this exact thing, and i havent posted any threads and have the answers to all of these. Its not just looking on TM3, its using google and typing in what you want to know. Youre not supposed to know all the answers, and nobody knows everything either, but you need to know how to search the internet for answers.

#spoonfed

[greyseason]

Do we even know what year your car is?

[greyseason]

http://mazda3revolution.com/forums/2010-13-mazdaspeed-3-suspension-handling/

http://www.torontomazda3.ca/forum/showthread.php?8772-Mazda-3-Consolidated-List-for-Drop-Springs

[greyseason]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biOLaKSC0sM

[LimeWan]

I dont police anything, its just i know IVE done my own research on this exact thing, and i havent posted any threads and have the answers to all of these. Its not just looking on TM3, its using google and typing in what you want to know. Youre not supposed to know all the answers, and nobody knows everything either, but you need to know how to search the internet for answers.

#spoonfed

For most issues, both on this as well as forums related with non-car related stuff, I do indeed search for whatever issues I have before I post. All I'm asking is just because you didn't want to post a thread, why should everyone follow your footsteps?

What exactly is your issue with a thread that has been posted about in the past? How does it concern you?

And I mentioned I have a gen 2 in the third post or so: "I'm looking at a set of wheels 18x8, with a +35 or +42 mm offset on a gen2"

Really, I should have said for a gen2 instead of on a gen2, but apparently it didn't matter, as FD22 understood what I was saying: "The added weight of the Gen2 will drop the car further as opposed to a Gen1. I wasn't aware you had a Gen2. "

By the first few posts, we are now on the same page.

If you have further issues with the threads I post, feel free to PM me, as we a cluttering this thread with unrelated posts, which is something that the mods DO care about.

[Kiyomi]

^^ Greyseason is just saying that it becomes redundant when newish people post about the same thing every couple of months. it happens. it has been covered multiple times. my suggestion is make a ride thread so that members can help you specifically with your car. its not a big deal, but you can imagine that every new member makes a thread about a mod their thinking of doing which many threads cover. pretty much how one member keeps posting in multiple threads when he wins a trophy or does something new to his car like lambo doors in three diff threads. cough cough M%$%@P#$&ect :D

lots of information is available on this forum if you search is all.

[LimeWan]

^^ Greyseason is just saying that it becomes redundant when newish people post about the same thing every couple of months. it happens. it has been covered multiple times. my suggestion is make a ride thread so that members can help you specifically with your car. its not a big deal, but you can imagine that every new member makes a thread about a mod their thinking of doing which many threads cover. pretty much how one member keeps posting in multiple threads when he wins a trophy or does something new to his car like lambo doors in three diff threads. cough cough M%$%@P#$&ect :D

lots of information is available on this forum if you search is all.

Thank you for providing a solution.

It seems that besides creating a ride thread, there is literally nothing you can ask anymore that hasn't been asked or implied in the past, without getting chirped for doing so.

ex. A) Person creates a thread about a topic that has been discussed before (me), and gets chirped (for lack of better word) for doing so
B) Person posts their question in an already existing thread that hasn't been updated in months/years time, and that person gets chirped for bumping an old thread
C) Person posts question in already existing thread that hasn't been updated for a year (like greyseason in one of the stickies), and no one responds to his question

For a question like the one in this thread - wheels vs coils - I agree it would have been better suited for a 'my ride' thread. The specific questions have indeed been answered, but in terms of my reasoning for organization, I suppose a 'my ride' thread would serve this exact purpose.

It's just that by going to the specific sub forum, you know that people who really understand this stuff are more likely to come across your question than if you were to post it in a 'my ride' thread. I don't have a thread for my ride as of yet, so I can't confirm whether or not this is true.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on the info I got out of this thread, I am very tempted to get things done right the first time and get H & R coils, with wheels to be had sometime in the future.

Thank you all for all of the help!

[Aitch]

We generally discourage the ask-a-noobish-question-and-expect-the-world-spoonfed-to-you style threads. Although this topic was covered before, if I thought the thread was of that style I wouldn't have responded the way I did. OP came looking for answers and seemed confused about the information he'd read already. Better to set the record straight then just send him back for more research.

[Hyperion]

^^ Greyseason is just saying that it becomes redundant when newish people post about the same thing every couple of months. it happens. it has been covered multiple times. my suggestion is make a ride thread so that members can help you specifically with your car. its not a big deal, but you can imagine that every new member makes a thread about a mod their thinking of doing which many threads cover. pretty much how one member keeps posting in multiple threads when he wins a trophy or does something new to his car like lambo doors in three diff threads. cough cough M%$%@P#$&ect :D

lots of information is available on this forum if you search is all.

*MazdaProject

Ftfy

Sorry for your sneeze

[Kiyomi]

*MazdaProject

Ftfy

Sorry for your sneeze

ROFL.

thx.

[LimeWan]

We generally discourage the ask-a-noobish-question-and-expect-the-world-spoonfed-to-you style threads. Although this topic was covered before, if I thought the thread was of that style I wouldn't have responded the way I did. OP came looking for answers and seemed confused about the information he'd read already. Better to set the record straight then just send him back for more research.

I get that, but then why did 6 other people comment that actually contributed to the thread, without simply telling me to go back and search some more?

Had I not asked this question, I would have not found out that shocks and springs are different from coilovers until a much later time, as no thread or write up I've read has ever mentioned that.

[Aitch]

I get that, but then why did 6 other people comment that actually contributed to the thread, without simply telling me to go back and search some more?

Had I not asked this question, I would have not found out that shocks and springs are different from coilovers until a much later time, as no thread or write up I've read has ever mentioned that.

I'm agreeing with you.

[LimeWan]

I'm agreeing with you.

Got it.

Just wanted to share my final opinion.

As for the original question I asked, I will just try finding a good dealer for H&R coils if I go down that path. I found them online for $1250, but Garage 16 is local and has them for $1450. Will have to check the shipping prices of that other site to get a better idea of final price.

Thanks again