Gearing Down or Braking

[Snipes]

What is better on your car for slowing down. Gearing down or braking? And when gearing down when should you do it? Like if you gear down and the rpm\'s go to 4000 is that bad?

[miggiddy]

I personally rather wear down my brakes v.s. my clutch, brakes are cheaper to maintain and service. I can see where you might use the engine to control your speed, like going down a steep hill.

The other application could be during the winter so you don\'t slide out of control when slowing down, but with ABS you should be able to maintain control. Although you\'d hope during snowy conditions people leave space and drive a little slower than they normally would.

[wtom]

Originally posted by miggiddy

Although you\'d hope during snowy conditions people leave space and drive a little slower than they normally would.

Seeing as how a friend of mine who\'s in the tow-truck business gets his peak work period during the first few snow falls of winter... :)

I was in Ottawa on Sunday and saw some of the roads actually have signs stating \"NO Engine Braking\" and I\'m thinking it should state \"NO Tailgating\" instead.

[miggiddy]

Good point wtom, when you engine brake your brake lights obviously don\'t light up. Which I think what happened on the way home from the meet on Saturday. I was heading west on the 401 (slow lane) when traffic started to slow down. I was approaching a VW then for some reason he appeared to slow down fairly rapidly but I didn\'t notice his brake lights at all, nearly hit him. I swerved onto the shoulder (which almost look like a lane) missed him by a couple of inches. IF I hadn\'t swerved I\'m sure it would have been bad, as I was right beside him, the nose of my car about halfway down his side.

So another good reason not to engine brake.

[Grifter]

I was actually wondering about this the other day too. So now that we have a few reasons NOT to engine brake, why do people still do it?

[Snipes]

I do it to save on my brakes and was told that downshifting is not bad for the car. I guess one thing that I am saving is all the brake dust that everybody is complaining about.

[Xenon]

that\'s my reason for doing it...

I washed my car Friday... My back rims are turning a dark gray already.

[wtom]

Originally posted by Grifter


I was actually wondering about this the other day too. So now that we have a few reasons NOT to engine brake, why do people still do it?

Probably because it sounds cool? haha... I dunno, I\'d prefer to brake instead too since (in my mind) brake replacement is cheaper to do than engine repair.

[billyfo]

gear down if I going from 120 to 100 (5 - 4), then hit brake with gear down (4 -3). true the ride will be rough, but have better stopping power, at least for me.

[rbart4506]

Originally posted by wtom



Originally posted by miggiddy

Although you\'d hope during snowy conditions people leave space and drive a little slower than they normally would.

Seeing as how a friend of mine who\'s in the tow-truck business gets his peak work period during the first few snow falls of winter... :)

I was in Ottawa on Sunday and saw some of the roads actually have signs stating \"NO Engine Braking\" and I\'m thinking it should state \"NO Tailgating\" instead.

I believe the \"No Engine Braking\" sign has more to do with sound concerns then anything else and it is more geared towards large trucks and not cars....

BTW I\'ve engine braked for years and have never had to replace a clutch earlier then expected. My last car, a 1998 Protege, had 155k on it and the clutch was still original and just starting to show signs of wear. Granted I don\'t drop the clutch at 4000rpm. I tend to brake and slow the car down and I will downshift when the car is between 2000-2500rpm. That way the rpm\'s don\'t go up to bad and I get a more controled stop.

It\'s been working for me so I\'ll keep doing it.

Rich

[Derksen]

I have always downshifted while slowing down. If you let out the clutch at the right times and ease it out, it won\'t cause your clutch any harm. I drove my 1st car to 250k, my last car to 180k and I already have 18k on my 3. No problems with all 3 clutches.

[bluntman]

Anyone ever try this with their Manu-matic transmission (when slowing down throw it into manual and then gear down)?

[Derksen]

I used to do it on my pops S80... not a very nice experience. It lets the gear out very harsh. Okay to put a little power at the wheels though.

[snipe]

Originally posted by bluntman


Anyone ever try this with their Manu-matic transmission (when slowing down throw it into manual and then gear down)?

I engine brake alomost regularly with the tiptronic when coming to a red light or slowing down to a turn etc. But at the same time I just press the brake pedal to turn my brake lights on, I don\'t actaully brake with them, just give the people behind me a heads up on what I\'m doing, because so many people on the road don\'t get it. If you press the brake pedal lightly, you can turn on the brake lights and not brake (well very extremely minimally). Correct me if I\'m wrong.

[wtom]

Originally posted by snipe
If you press the brake pedal lightly, you can turn on the brake lights and not brake (well very extremely minimally). Correct me if I\'m wrong.

I\'ve watched my hatch brake light, light up when I press the brake in for literally a millimeter... very sensitive! for safety reasons of course. Try it at night if you can see the area around your brake lights \"light up\" ... that or reverse towards a wall and press the brake so that you can see when they light up. It\'s not a lot of pressure required.

[Xenon]

that\'s also for cruise control, if you don\'t use the \"CANCEL\" button on the steeeringwheel you can touch the brake pedal and coast.

[ArcticMazda3]

Ayn good 5-sp driver will have downshifting in thier skillset, there is nothing wrong with DS as long as you rev match to the lower gear, it will not kill your clutch and your engine as long as you are doing it properly, I don\'t care if ppl. behind me aren\'t paying attention just b/c I\'m slowing by DS and the brake lights don\'t come on they should pay attention and obviously I\'m paying attention to see if they aren\'t paying attention (whew)....I hate braking I minimize the use of my brakes basically if you are comming to a stop and your rpms are LOW then DS to the next lower gear, if you are going fast and the RPMs are high then brake first and then DS to the next gear and coast from there repeat the process, you can heel-toe it at the same time too as well if you are talented enough.

[Xenon]

I use the Sport mode for downshifting too... especially when I feel the need to do heavier-than-normal braking. I don\'t want my rims to turn black :p

It comes in handy. I also like to use the sport mode to keep the car in 4th when cruising. I find even if you are going 110 and you resume speed to 120 the car will downshift to 3 and floor it for you. I just don\'t feel that that quick of an acceleration from 110 to 120 is required all the time. So I use the sport mode to keep the car in 4th to make the acceleration more gradual.

[01AWW18T]

I downshift + brake at the same time. I think one advantage of doing this is, in an emergency situation where you have to accelerate away from harm, you will have a gear to do so. Otherwise, you\'ll be in neutral and won\'t have any gears to pull yourself out of trouble. That\'s how I think of it anyways. ;)

[rsx_r04]

Originally posted by ArcticMazda3


Ayn good 5-sp driver will have downshifting in thier skillset, there is nothing wrong with DS as long as you rev match to the lower gear, it will not kill your clutch and your engine as long as you are doing it properly, I don\'t care if ppl. behind me aren\'t paying attention just b/c I\'m slowing by DS and the brake lights don\'t come on they should pay attention and obviously I\'m paying attention to see if they aren\'t paying attention (whew)....I hate braking I minimize the use of my brakes basically if you are comming to a stop and your rpms are LOW then DS to the next lower gear, if you are going fast and the RPMs are high then brake first and then DS to the next gear and coast from there repeat the process, you can heel-toe it at the same time too as well if you are talented enough.

That\'s exactly how i feel.

[suprPHREAK]

Downshift, but blip your throttle...er, give a little gas to match the revvs to the speed/gear combo. Engine braking is OK. Quick downshifts causing your momentum to rip your engine up to speed isnt any good, as it causes undue stress on your vaves or something. Well, thats how life is in the bike world....

[wtom]

Thx, ArcticMazda3, and welcome rsx_r04 and suprPHREAK!

Downshift but double-clutch to rev-match while doing so to save the clutch and engine from premature wear and tear...

Question about rev-matching... what is the difference between rev-matching while clutch is still pressed vs. rev-matching in between a double-clutch?

I\'m still a rookie to stick driving but I\'ve done a few double-clutches to downshift with rev-matching... it\'s what everyone says you should do. I read somewhere that if you don\'t double-clutch while blipping the gas, there\'s another part of the tranny that doesn\'t get sped-up and thus it\'s like downshifting without rev-matching? Hope I didn\'t confuse all of you...

[suprPHREAK]

Originally posted by wtom


Question about rev-matching... what is the difference between rev-matching while clutch is still pressed vs. rev-matching in between a double-clutch?

Good question... I\'m actually not familiar with this double clutch thing...Im too used to 6-speed sequential shifters....

[01AWW18T]

Originally posted by wtom


Thx, ArcticMazda3, and welcome rsx_r04 and suprPHREAK!

Downshift but double-clutch to rev-match while doing so to save the clutch and engine from premature wear and tear...

Question about rev-matching... what is the difference between rev-matching while clutch is still pressed vs. rev-matching in between a double-clutch?

I\'m still a rookie to stick driving but I\'ve done a few double-clutches to downshift with rev-matching... it\'s what everyone says you should do. I read somewhere that if you don\'t double-clutch while blipping the gas, there\'s another part of the tranny that doesn\'t get sped-up and thus it\'s like downshifting without rev-matching? Hope I didn\'t confuse all of you...

When you rev match with the clutch Dis-engaged, you are just trying to match engine speed to the speed of the gear. However, the gear may not be in the correct speed, nor will the intermediate shaft in the tranny. Everything happens on the engine side in this case.

When you blip the gas with the clutch engaged while in neutral (during double-clutching), u are not only matching engine speed, but also the intermediate shaft inside the tranny, this will get everything in sync.

This is how it works to the best of my knowledge, I recall reading about this on the net somewhere of how it works. :) :sarc

[wtom]

So, 01AWW18T, what you said is the better way is NOT double-clutching and rev-matching but to rev-match while the clutch is still pressed and in N gear?

Maybe it\'s just me but I like doing it the latter way;

Clutch in
Pop out of (ie. 4th) gear
Blip gas pedal to increase RPMs a bit
Throw into (ie. 3rd) gear
Clutch out

[billyfo]

I am always doing this way:

clutch in, pop out gear, release clutch half way, step on gas, clutch in again, switch gear then clutch out.

for my own experience, if you gas in without release clutch half way, rpm will drop fast, so no engine rev-match.

[wtom]

Originally posted by billyfo


release clutch half way


Isn\'t that going to cause premature wear on your clutch?

Yeah, my RPMs drop fast too. I\'m still slow with double-clutching. :(

[01AWW18T]

Originally posted by wtom


So, 01AWW18T, what you said is the better way is NOT double-clutching and rev-matching but to rev-match while the clutch is still pressed and in N gear?

Maybe it\'s just me but I like doing it the latter way;

Clutch in
Pop out of (ie. 4th) gear
Blip gas pedal to increase RPMs a bit
Throw into (ie. 3rd) gear
Clutch out

double clutching is what I have described, clutch in, pop out of 4th so u\'re in N now, then clutch out, blip gas, clutch in drop into 3rd

the way you described really has no effect on tranny speed or the speed of gears because all you\'re doing is matching the engine\'s rev to whatever speed the gears are spinning at (and they\'re slowing down since the clutch is out)

the way I described it (double-clutch) will match the tranny\'s intermediate shaft\'s speed to the engine speed, thus matching gearing speed more closely since the intermediate shaft doesn\'t slow down.

hopefully what I have above is correct ;)

here\'s a quick website I found describing double clutch:
http://www.driversedge.com/dblcltch.htm