Argghh....Insurance Companies

[amit2000]

Hello,

I was supposed to pick up my GS 3 Sedan today, but I cannot find an insurance provider willing to provide insurance at a reasonable price. For the last 4 days, I have frantically been searching for a reasonable quote, and many times, I am thinking I am getting a good quote, but later I am denied because my father had an accident benefit claim in 2000. I hate it, most companies won\'t even consider us (me and my father) because he got rear ended by a vehicle and had to file an accident benefit claim. Righ now, we are with ING, and for a 2000 MPV, him being 48 and me 22 with a clean record it is $6000. To add the 3 would jump up the premium to $12000. I shopped around, and RBC is offering $8700, and that is the only company offering us inusrance, other\'s wont even consider because of a NON-FAULT accident claim. Hate these insurance rates in Toronto, can\'t wait to move to North Carolina where my girlfriend had three accidents and pays $990 a year.

Does anyone know any companies willing to accept someone who has filed a NON-FAULT accident claim? My record is clean, so I don\'t have to worry about that. As of today, I rescheduled the pickup for Saturday morning, gives me two days to find insurance. Geeze!

[majic]

not sure.. but try pc insurance (www.pcinsurance.ca) hope they can take u..

insurance is a ****ing scam.. i\'m so sick of it.. you have to get insurance and in teh end u never claim anything b/c u\'r too scared to do so (premiums going up) or you do claim and you\'re ****ed for ever..

****ed if u do.. ****ed if you don\'t..

there\'s GOTTA be some regulation for ins cos man.!! ugh.. they make BILLIONS each year and they should invest some of that towards fighting fraud then maybe we\'d be better off..

[bluntman]

^^^Don\'t hold anything back majic, tell us how you really feel!

[amit2000]

Hello,

Thanks for the advice, I tried PC Insurance and they want $10000 per year for both cars. In a little over two years, I can purchase a brand new 3 with the amount of insurance I will be paying. I thought things were fine, besides me being young, I was willing to pay a premium, but little did I know that just because some taxi driver ran into my dad while he was standing outside his car and disabled his leg, he will have to pay a good $5000 more per year and put up with insurance companies not even considering his application. It is a damn scam, especially in the Toronto area.

[bluntman]

Dude, that\'s crazy...I\'m in the last few weeks of being in Facility Insurance and I\'ve been paying a lot less than what you\'re being charged. If you\'re a member of CAA, check with them. University students or graduates, I believe can check with Meloche Monnex. You or your father\'s workplace may have some sort of arrangement with an insurance company as well (credit unions). As your last choice, try an insurance broker.

[bubba1983]

Originally posted by majic


not sure.. but try pc insurance (www.pcinsurance.ca) hope they can take u..

insurance is a ****ing scam.. i\'m so sick of it.. you have to get insurance and in teh end u never claim anything b/c u\'r too scared to do so (premiums going up) or you do claim and you\'re ****ed for ever..

****ed if u do.. ****ed if you don\'t..

there\'s GOTTA be some regulation for ins cos man.!! ugh.. they make BILLIONS each year and they should invest some of that towards fighting fraud then maybe we\'d be better off..

and you bitch to me about language in posts...ffss, ****ing retarded i say!!!

[kyfe]

Not to be rude or anything but there has to be more to the story than your dad having a not at fault. was it a high payout? were there any payment issues in the past? any tickets? any gaps in insurance? license suspensions?

There is no rule at any insurance company saying they can\'t provide you insurance due to a not at fault.

10G\'s also seems high.... does your dad have his own insurance?

if you\'d like PM me the whole story and I\'ll see what I can do for you as i work in this field.

As for insurance being a scam, hey I pay it to.If you guys witness some of what i have you\'d realize why it\'s so expense :) 3 Insurance companies last year made a profit on Auto. The majority of revenue generated by an insurance company comes from Life insurance and investments made.

I am in no way defending \"the man\" just saying that its a business just like any other and in any business the goal is to maximize shareholder value not to break even.

Kyfe

[amit2000]

Originally posted by kyfe


Not to be rude or anything but there has to be more to the story than your dad having a not at fault. was it a high payout? were there any payment issues in the past? any tickets? any gaps in insurance? license suspensions?

There is no rule at any insurance company saying they can\'t provide you insurance due to a not at fault.

10G\'s also seems high.... does your dad have his own insurance?

if you\'d like PM me the whole story and I\'ll see what I can do for you as i work in this field.

As for insurance being a scam, hey I pay it to.If you guys witness some of what i have you\'d realize why it\'s so expense :) 3 Insurance companies last year made a profit on Auto. The majority of revenue generated by an insurance company comes from Life insurance and investments made.

I am in no way defending \"the man\" just saying that its a business just like any other and in any business the goal is to maximize shareholder value not to break even.

Kyfe

Yes, there was a high payout, but that was completely justified, if not, the payout was a compromise. He was disabled in the crash, and that would limit his working capiblity in the future, hence, the high payout. But was it his fault? Just because he got hit by a car and claimed accident benefit, does it make him a high risk driver? He has had insurance in Canada for over 25 years, without any cancellations and one ticket for running a stop sign in 2003.

Brokers will not take my father because of the accident benefit claim, I have been through almost all of the insurance companies, and settled with RBC for $8400 a year for two cars. Only the big banks were willing to provide insurance for under $10,000.

[Melenium]

Wow.. creepy. This is sort of similar situation I’m in. My car has been waiting for me now for about 2 weeks and I just haven’t been able to get a reasonable insurance deal either. I’ve done a fair bit of research into this, so I hope some of this will help you out at least. Hopefully it won’t give everyone else nightmares :p

First, they say everyone in Ontario has a right to auto insurance.. but you have to pay for that right quite dearly. Second, you must have insurance to drive a car or else you may end up in one or more houses of pain.

Everyone who lives in a house/condo that has a valid driver’s license needs to be put on a policy. Even if they are never going to touch the insurance the companies demand it because if they were to go out for a drive “just because they need to” or whatever and they are not on the policy, the insurance companies could be liable under something called “absolute liability.” What this means is that if say your father were not on the policy and did take your car out (just around the corner to get milk for example) and something were to happen he would not have “insurance.” Thus whoever was involved could sue his and/or your pants off. Assuming you don’t have the potential hundreds of thousands lying around, the liability falls back to the insurance company since they are insuring you on the same vehicle, thus they may have to pay out a claim for which no premium was paid.

On the other hand, if your dad is on another policy in the house, he does not have to be put on your car. You can also try asking insurance companies if they will allow for something called a “28A Excluded Driver Endorsement.” This supposedly means that your dad will be explicitly excluded from driving your car and that if he were to drive the car the insurance companies will not be liable. Unfortunately because of the remote possibility of “absolute liability”, most will not offer this option. Here is what a 28A endorsement would probably look like if you\'re able to find such a mythical beast (http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/FSCO_UW_MainEngine.nsf/0/e35a2fcecd9b938985256d9e005683bd/$FILE/OPCF28-10-03.pdf)

As for ridiculous rates, well that’s the way it seems to go. There are 2 markets: regular insurance, and facility insurance. With regular insurance it’s actually not all that unreasonable what you pay considering what you get. You pay a premium of between $1500 and $4000 if you have a good record, depending on how long you’ve been driving, the area, distances and such. Not too bad considering if your car gets written off they give you up to its value.

Then there is the other market, Facility Insurance. This is where you land up if you’ve done the slightest thing wrong—from farting to smashing into someone. This is where you have to practically sell your first born and mortgage all your future earnings. This is where they make you bend over and regret having driven 10km over the limit. In other words this is the place you go in Ontario because you have a “right to insurance, but have to pay for it.” And to everyone reading this who thinks they’re safe, think again. You’ll be surprised how damn easily you could end up with facility, and how quickly it can **** up your financial life. For example:
-2 at fault accidents (tapping a bumper and not leaving a scratch in a parking lot is AT FAULT. Hitting a curb in a snow storm and needing a new tire is AT FAULT.) in the past 6 years. 6 years is a LONG time.
-if you have 4 speeding tickets in 3 years.
-if you have only been licensed for 4 years or less and get 3 tickets
-1 at fault accident in 6 years, and 3 tickets in 3 years.
-any other reason under the stars they may dream up in the future

Here (http://www.lifeinsurancebrokers.com/automobile%20Underwriting%20Risk%20declines.htm) is a list of over 30 reasons you could end up with a facility association.

So say you got a speeding ticket 1 year ago. You get another one in a few weeks time. This winter you slide into a curb (no other car involved) and need a tow to get back onto the road and the insurance company finds out. Get another ticket in the next 2 years and you’re doomed to facility.

Now to put this all together, say you have a spotless record for the last 6 years, but someone else in your house does not and you get a new car- they need to be put on the same policy as you, and since the rating is per car, your ratings get combined and you end up in facility. Bugger.

As for some companies, as far as I know there are 3 that do facility at somewhat reasonable rates: Kingsway, Paphco and Perlis (I think that’s what they’re called). Unfortunately they all treat you like the scum of the earth. Most regular insurance companies let you pay the initial amount by credit card (the initial amount is the first and last months due at once). These ones often require it in certified funds. Most of these don’t allow you to get a waiver of depreciation (that means if you shiny new car gets hit driving off the dealers lot, you get paid out market value which is thousands less than what you paid new). Some don’t give loss of use. Some don’t allow for longer or shorter terms (that way they can easily weasel out of renewing your policy at short notice and make you have to pay even higher amounts). If you don\'t pay it all at once (who can afford to?) they also often make you finance the amount at a rate of some % (I was told 3-5%) Basically they know you’re desperate and seriously take advantage of it and milk you for every penny you have.

What I’d recommend doing is calling around to some of the larger brokerage firms and seeing if they have any companies that would allow for the 28A endorsement (assuming your father is not going to drive the car). I’ve been at this a week and haven’t found any yet. Plan B is to try and find companies that will underwrite with Kingsway, Paphco or Perlis. Beyond that, the only thing that will reduce rates is time itself.

On the note of time, I should mention gaps in policies. Many companies want to know when you were last insured and if there were any gaps. I read somewhere that companies actually cannot put you at a disadvantage for having any gaps… though I can’t find the source for that so I’m not 100% sure.

Well, now that I’ve said my shtick, I’m still looking to see if I can find a better rate elsewhere and am really going batty. Buying insurance definitely doesn’t seem to be a same day sort of a deal if you don’t have a spotless record. It’s really frustrating and time consuming.. and expensive.

Now for the legal mumbo-jumbo: I didn’t set out to write an essay about this, but it seems that’s just the way it turned out. I hope everyone got something out of this and will drive a bit more carefully after knowing the risks of it. Also, I’m not a broker or expert, I don’t play one on TV or the internet, so don’t blame me if I’m wrong or hold me liable or anything. :p

To play devils advocate, after having studied way too much economics at school, there are three points to be made in the insurance companies’ favour: 1) They in business to make money; 2) They have the right to manage their risk; 3) Fraud is ****ing us all over… but I could write a whole other paper on this side of things, so I’ll save it for another day ;)

[kyfe]

Wow you\'ve done your research:D

Just wanted to clarify a couple of things,
Nobody has a RIGHT to auto insurance it is and will always be a privledge.

You are referring to the all comers rule. meaning no insurance company can deny you insurance unless you fall outside their guidelines. The guidelines differ from company to company, my company has approximately 52 guidlines for which we can deny insurance. If you fall outside of those guidelines you are most likely Facility.

As for listing everyone in the house you are correct but i wanted to add a couple of things to help clear up this point. Everyone in Canada is entitled to Accident benefits even if they are not listed on the policy
ie: you hit a child on a bike, you are AF (at Fault) you\'re insurance company pays AB (accident benefits) to the child

example 2 someone steals your car, they too are entitled to AB under your policy, even though they commited a criminal act
This is why Auto insurance is manditory, the government feels nobody should suffer from the result of an auto accident. really it has little to do with you but more to do with other parties.

With regards to suing you cannot sue in Ontario unless you have suffered a permanent catastrophic injury or permanent disability. This point applies to insureds not to their passengers

As for absolute liability example 2 illustrates that point pretty well. below i\'ve included the definition from the ibc.ca website.

Absolute liability
If, for example, a pedestrian were to be injured by an insured vehicle owned and operated by a driver whose license is suspended, the insurer of the car incurs an absolute liability (or strict obligation) to reimburse the pedestrian\'s losses. The insurer would not, however, be obliged to pay for damage to the car. Furthermore, the driver would have to reimburse the insurer for its payment to the pedestrian. Insurers\' absolute liability in certain circumstances provides financial protection for innocent victims of a wrongdoer, even if the wrongdoer has violated the terms of the insurance policy.

As for 28a exclusions NO insurer will take on a policy and allow a 28a if it\'s new business, it does not make good business sense what so ever. If you knew the risk was higher than normal why would you risk bringing it on the books? This is something that is offered to exisiting business mainly because we have a history with the client and we want to accomidate the client.

as for GAPs Ontario insurance is based on years licensed not years insured, so if you have a Gap you may lose out on discounts or if the gaps is long enough
ie licensed for 10 years but never touched a car they may offer you a rating of 0* or whatever since it is logical and the likleyhood of an accident would be higher than someone who has driven for 10 years and can prove it. only in extreme cases will the insurer rate for the GAP.

Being the only vehicle involved in an accident is an automatic AF since there is no other party that could assume liability for the acciedent, unless you plan on suing the tree you hit of the icepatch you skid on.

AF\'s are rateable for 6yrs Tickets 3 yrs.

It comes down to common sense and responsibility, the more you care about your driving habits the better driver you\'ll be. 3 speeding tickets in 2 yrs is nobodys fault but your own, 2 accidents in 3 yrs is your fault and responsibility. <- this paragraph is not directed at anyone, I\'m just illustating a point.

Think of it like your Credit Rating if you neglect it it will bite you in the ass sooner or later.

Melenium, we have spoke about this and hopefully I can help you out, maybe next week we can go over the details via PM.

amit2000 I would be glad to see if there is anything i can do for you as well, PM me the details and we can talk about it.

Kyfe:)

[Melenium]

Hey Kyfe,
thanks for clearing up and adding to my points.. you made a few good ones. I don\'t like paying high insurance any more than the next guy, but I do understand the 3 things I listed at the end of my blurb.

On the other hand, I don\'t respect the way the insurance industry has become so impersonal (I\'m not talking about the brokers, they\'re usually nice fellows, but rather the underwriting companies). I mean they\'ve literally got your balls in a vice and make no accommodations. Whats wrong with offering 3 months policies if clients want it? Why should everyone pay for the fraud that is committed (it should be their due dilligence to put an end to it and recover it from those found to be committing it, not our problem).

Just my $0.02 :p

Its kind of hard to work out policy details through a PM. In the meantime I\'m going to try and set up a 6 month policy and hopefully I can get my car and make the next meet.. then we can chat..

[civiclad]

Kyfe/Melenium,

Guy\'s, very well written!

[kyfe]

Mel,

I\'ll send you my direct # give me a shout and hopefully i can help

Underwriters are like Accountants, there is no grey area.

Kyfe

[AfterBurner]

Have you considered getting the insurance just for yourself?

I am a male, 23 years old, and I got the insurance on my own and not under my parents. I got it from carinsurance.ca and my company is Pilot Insurance. I pay $3,600 a year for my self and my 05\' GS sedan. If it was under my parents it would be less expensive but maybe not in your case.

[kyfe]

Originally posted by AfterBurner


Have you considered getting the insurance just for yourself?

I am a male, 23 years old, and I got the insurance on my own and not under my parents. I got it from carinsurance.ca and my company is Pilot Insurance. I pay $3,600 a year for my self and my 05\' GS sedan. If it was under my parents it would be less expensive but maybe not in your case.

Almost every company offers a multi vehicle discount as longer as you\'re over 25 it applies. for example ours is 20% off manditory coverage that\'s quite the insentive to keep them together.

I\'m assuming your parents have their own insurance?
everyone is a little different so it\'s pretty hard to compare situations if you\'re getting 3.6k\'s thats alright.

I\'m 30 on my 3 gt hatch i pay around 1.5k /yr i have 1 ticket that\'s rated for.

Kyfe

[AfterBurner]

Originally posted by kyfe



Originally posted by AfterBurner


Have you considered getting the insurance just for yourself?

I am a male, 23 years old, and I got the insurance on my own and not under my parents. I got it from carinsurance.ca and my company is Pilot Insurance. I pay $3,600 a year for my self and my 05\' GS sedan. If it was under my parents it would be less expensive but maybe not in your case.

Almost every company offers a multi vehicle discount as longer as you\'re over 25 it applies. for example ours is 20% off manditory coverage that\'s quite the insentive to keep them together.

I\'m assuming your parents have their own insurance?
everyone is a little different so it\'s pretty hard to compare situations if you\'re getting 3.6k\'s thats alright.

I\'m 30 on my 3 gt hatch i pay around 1.5k /yr i have 1 ticket that\'s rated for.

Kyfe

I forgot to mention that my record is clean with no infractions of any kind. My point is that even with a multi-vehicle discount the fact that the primary driver was involved in a serious collision would dwarf the discount. If you had your separate policy then the liability of the previous primary driver would not be a factor.

[amit2000]

Originally posted by AfterBurner



Originally posted by kyfe



Originally posted by AfterBurner


Have you considered getting the insurance just for yourself?

I am a male, 23 years old, and I got the insurance on my own and not under my parents. I got it from carinsurance.ca and my company is Pilot Insurance. I pay $3,600 a year for my self and my 05\' GS sedan. If it was under my parents it would be less expensive but maybe not in your case.

Almost every company offers a multi vehicle discount as longer as you\'re over 25 it applies. for example ours is 20% off manditory coverage that\'s quite the insentive to keep them together.

I\'m assuming your parents have their own insurance?
everyone is a little different so it\'s pretty hard to compare situations if you\'re getting 3.6k\'s thats alright.

I\'m 30 on my 3 gt hatch i pay around 1.5k /yr i have 1 ticket that\'s rated for.

Kyfe

I forgot to mention that my record is clean with no infractions of any kind. My point is that even with a multi-vehicle discount the fact that the primary driver was involved in a serious collision would dwarf the discount. If you had your separate policy then the liability of the previous primary driver would not be a factor.

I tried that as well, but if I opt for my own insurance policy, I will have to pay $5000 a year for it, so not worth it. I suppose it is because of the area I live in, postal code M6L which is actually in Toronto. I know if I move to Mississauga, it is $1000 cheaper for the same coverage.

[AfterBurner]

I actually live in Malvern in Scarborough which is not exactly on the insurance companies lowest risk list. If your record is clean then you should be able to get $4,000 easy.

[fuey]

state farm have decent pricing if u throw in ur home and auto with them.

[Titanum-3]

I had to put my car under my parents name so I could afford the insurance and car payments.

[fuey]

Originally posted by Titanum-3


I had to put my car under my parents name so I could afford the insurance and car payments.


hey titianum, was the car under ur name? does the ins. company let ur parent be the primary driver with that setup?

[kyfe]

Originally posted by fuey



Originally posted by Titanum-3


I had to put my car under my parents name so I could afford the insurance and car payments.


hey titianum, was the car under ur name? does the ins. company let ur parent be the primary driver with that setup?

fuey, you could own the car and have your parent listed as the primary driver, the only way this would not work is if there are 3 people in the house and 3 cars.

all 3 people must be listed as a primary on a vehicle, usually they are assigned according to what they mainly drive.

I hope this answers your question.

[Titanum-3]

Originally posted by fuey



Originally posted by Titanum-3


I had to put my car under my parents name so I could afford the insurance and car payments.


hey titianum, was the car under ur name? does the ins. company let ur parent be the primary driver with that setup?

No the car is under my dads name. I am listed as secondary driver. We have 3 cars and 4 drivers so I don\'t have to be listed as primary driver, it saves a lot of money.